Human Resources Committee on Oct. 16th, 2023

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Hello, Madam Minister. I want to thank you and the members of your department for being here.

I listened to your remarks carefully, but I want to focus on the Canada Summer Jobs program, since it is the focus of our study. That does not take anything away from the Youth Employment and Skills Strategy, but that is not our focus today.

Our goal is to determine whether the program's funding and terms can be reviewed. I will speak on behalf of my colleagues from the Bloc Québécois, and also for other colleagues, for a very simple reason: we sent you a joint letter, from the four political parties, on Mr. Morrice's initiative.

It was a great shock in our respective ridings to learn that funding for the Canada Summer Jobs program had been cut by 30% compared to previous years, during the pandemic. Without fanfare, we went back to the budget from before the pandemic, from 2019-2020, even though it is now 2022-2023.

It is true that the program is increasingly popular, not to say populist. Increasingly, it meets the needs of organizations and of young people seeking work experience. You yourself said that you had met a young woman who had started a company under the Canada Summer Jobs program, a company that she was still operating. There are many such positive experiences.

Did you observe or assess the shock that the funding announcement caused, in terms of applicants and the number of jobs available to young people?

Moreover, since the finance minister is expected to table the budget update soon, are you prepared to ask for and demand a funding increase for the Canada Summer Jobs program?

[Marci Ien, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you for your questions.

I'll deal with the number of jobs first.

We can't discount the pandemic of 2020. Our government responded to the need at that time, with a 30% unemployment rate among young people, to say that we were going to do all that we could. Some of those things were off-cycle requests and some of them were base funding within Canada's summer jobs program. We responded with 100,000-plus jobs, an unprecedented number.

We are now back to prepandemic 2019 spending. That is exactly what I, as an MP, told employers and anybody who asked that we were doing, and why. CSJ, as I mentioned, is an incredibly successful program. It's an oversubscribed program, but it's not the only program, and it's important to look at everything as a whole.

That said, I want to point out—

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Madam Minister, to clarify, I did not say that we should disregard the pandemic period.

My question is very clear. You have been asked several times why, in 2023, you did not consider the increase in applications, the cost of living, indexation and the circumstances that have changed since 2019. Funding for the program should have been increased in keeping with all those factors, but instead you came back with the pre-pandemic budget. Going back to the 2019 budget means going back in time after two years of the pandemic, so it is the status quo. In reality, however, it is no longer the status quo.

[Marci Ien, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Madame, it's far from the status quo. For example, in 2019—this is for your riding, Thérèse-de Blainville—you received $693,345. In 2023, Madame, that number was $840,182 in CSJ funding. There are particular funding models that take into account all of the factors you just described.

What we were talking about is an oversubscribed program and a pandemic in which we went above and beyond. When this program started, it was 35,000 jobs in 2015, and we doubled it. We did so because there are funding formulas, but also because we were prioritizing youth, and still are.

I wanted to point out the numbers in your own riding because they go up significantly between 2019 and 2023. I'll repeat them: It was just under $700,000 in 2019 in Thérèse-de Blainville, Quebec. Then it was $693,345. To your point, in 2023 it was $840,182.

With regard to where we go from here, I will always advocate having the funding we need for this program going forward.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madame, you have time for a short question.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Madam Minister, did you ask the Minister of Finance for a budget increase for the Canada Summer Jobs program, or will we be in the same boat as last year?

[Marci Ien, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

We will make sure that we always advocate for this program and advocate for the suite of programs that we have under the strategy.

Thank you very much, Ms. Chabot.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

We have Madam Zarrillo for six minutes, please.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

I just wanted to revisit something you raised earlier around the discrimination that happens in employment in Canada and this opportunity to address that.

Based on the data that I have seen, the reduction in the postpandemic funding disproportionately hurt women, girls, indigenous youth and youth with disabilities. This is absolutely true in my riding, where a lot of the summer jobs opportunities are summer camps, which also affects women who are working and who need these summer camps. I can think specifically about one summer jobs application for which their funding was cut by half this year. Even though they maintained the 10% of my budget, their actual funding was cut in half.

I want to focus on the importance of this program for women and girls. Two-thirds of the participants are women and girls. I want to understand more. What job categories are they taking on? What is the wage gap between the genders and what is the tracking of these jobs?

[Marci Ien, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

First, Bonita, thank you so much for your question and for your advocacy.

At this point, I really want to highlight the national priorities, because they take into account what you're saying. They take into account the listening and learning that I was talking about before. These are not just overall general numbers; you have to look beneath those numbers and dig a little bit.

In 2023, we had five national priorities. Youth with disabilities was number one. Then I dug a little deeper and wanted to know about the jobs: How many young people with disabilities? Right now, that's 9%. We have to improve that. I'm hoping that MPs who have the tools to improve that will see that and prioritize those organizations: Black and other racialized youth were at 21% and indigenous youth were at 4%, and then it was small businesses and not-for-profit organizations. Then it was small businesses and not-for-profit orgs in environmental sectors. Those were the national priorities.

I say this, Bonita, because it's important within that women and girls lens to look a little deeper and understand who they are and which communities they're from. As the minister responsible for youth and responsible for this program, I look at our number one priority being youth with disabilities, and I see 9%. I want to say that in this forum because I want that to improve, but that means MPs and all of us working together to prioritize these organizations. That's how it improves. I want to see greater numbers with Black and other racialized youth as well. Women and girls fit in there. I want to put it out there in this forum that it's at 21%, and I'd like to that to improve too, as well as indigenous youth, which is only at 4%.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I agree with you.

Is it also captured in category or channel? Is it service? Is it child care? Is there a capture as well in which we can look at it even one layer deeper?

[Marci Ien, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Please go ahead, Deputy.

[Frances McRae, Deputy Minister, Department for Women and Gender Equality]

Thank you for the question.

We are at this time looking at an evaluation that would cover that type of data in terms of the types of jobs by category. We'll certainly take that one under advisement.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

That's great. I'm very interested in that.

It says here it is mandatory for the employer to respond to a follow-up survey, but for participants in the program it's not necessarily mandatory. Could this committee please get the qualitative and quantitative information from the student participants? I'd love to be able to see that.

I want to ask another question about participants involved in this program.

Many young people don't know about their tax filings. Many young people don't know about the disability tax credit. They don't know about the caregiver credit, and many of them may be doing caregiving at home.

Are there other skills and tools and knowledge around tax filings and things to which these students are entitled that the Government of Canada can pass on to them as they're funnelled into and out of the program?

I'm going to share an example. A young person in my riding who was hired as a cook through the summer jobs program didn't realize that they would be potentially eligible for the disability tax credit based on some of their learning abilities. These had been identified all through their schooling, but they were not aware that they were entitled to some tax credits when they went into the job market.

I wonder if there is an opportunity for us to be educating them as they come into and out of the program.

[Marci Ien, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

We are constantly educating.

You bring up a really good point. I was thinking about this. I was a new MP in 2020 and I was going through Canada summer jobs. At that point we had a very limited amount of time. Now, as MPs, we have about two and a half weeks to go through it. That was something we learned through feedback—that we needed more time. I realized that the same larger organizations in my riding were getting CSJ. There was a whole educational component that involved going to smaller organizations and saying, “Do you know about this?”—meaning, as you mentioned, the disability tax credit—and saying, “This would be great for you.”

I see the difference between 2015 and now with respect to who is involved in this program, who is taking part in this program, and the role of an MP.

This program is unprecedented. It's paramount here, because we know our communities. It is about providing information. You make some excellent points, Bonita. It is about education as well. It's about knowing our ridings, and it's about finding the information that is needed by those we serve.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Minister.

Thank you, Ms. Zarrillo.

Everybody has gone over a bit, but you can see that it's an engaging discussion.

Ms. Zarrillo, you made some really valid points on education.

Ms. Grey, go ahead for five minutes.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

Your government announced the Canada summer jobs program with respect to both funding and how the number of anticipated jobs would drop back down to virtually match prepandemic levels. You confirmed that with us here today.

Did you take into account inflation and payroll tax increases when calculating the number of placements?

[Marci Ien, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you so much, Tracy, for the question.

We took into consideration the feedback we got from MPs as well as the feedback we got from young people in the program and from employers. We looked at all of it—from during the pandemic and from after the pandemic and from where we were. What we realized—and I want to say this, Tracy—

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Minister, I'm asking about the financial part of it.

If the funding is the same or virtually the same, simple math would show that your estimate for placements is off, because there are actually going to be fewer jobs because the average wage has increased since 2018. Would that not be true?

[Marci Ien, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I'm going to pass this over to Frances, who can delve into the numbers a bit more.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Actually, Minister, we will have the officials here afterwards, so if you're not able to answer that question—

[Marci Ien, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I'm able to answer, but what I'm saying is that we were looking at our programs as a whole and listening and learning, Tracy, and understanding that this is Canada summer jobs and not a year-round program. CSJ wasn't meant to be a stimulus program; CSJ was meant to be an opportunity for high school kids to get a summer job. If we're talking about jobs and indexing—

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I'm not talking about who or what the places are. I'm talking about the numbers you've given for how many job placements there would be, because wages have gone up.

[Marci Ien, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Yes, and it's because those numbers coincide with the suite of programs. This is what I'm saying.