Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 28th, 2012

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

First of all, I want to thank the minister for coming before us and giving us.

Minister, I want to pursue this line of questioning around the funding for the interim health care benefits, the interim federal health program, IFHP, in supplementary estimates (B) vote 1. As you know, Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall has called the cuts to the refugee health program “un-Canadian”. Now his health minister is calling for a review of these cuts after a man was denied chemotherapy. By the way, when somebody has cancer, that treatment isn't frivolous or just something extra.

When I asked you about this in question period yesterday, you said, “I actually disagree with the member's suggestion that asylum claimants coming from, for example, the United States or the European Union are among the most vulnerable people.“ But the man in question, Mr. Minister, who was denied critical cancer treatment is from Pakistan, not the EU or the U.S.

This IRB report shows that upwards of 75% of claimants from Pakistan are accepted as refugees. Very few claims are abandoned or withdrawn. It is definitely not considered a safe country.

You have also said, “if provinces want to provide prescription and pharmaceutical coverage...they are welcome to do so”. The problem here is that you have essentially downloaded what was once a federal responsibility to the provinces. Therefore, you can understand why they may not find that to be a particularly generous offer.

Minister, you need to stop spinning and explaining and admit that this mean-spirited stunt has backfired. Even your provincial friends—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Stop the clock. There's a point of order.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I understand that Ms. Sims has questions and concerns about the estimates, but I think that handing out orders to the minister during committee is probably not helpful to either the committee or the responsibilities we have in terms of asking questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

That's a valid point.

Ms. Sims.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you, point taken.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Don't continue what you're doing, because it's out of order.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Well, I'm going to carry on with my comments and then questions, and if I'm out of order with what I say next, then we will debate that at that time.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Okay, but we won't debate it.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I won't be repeating the sentence I just said.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Okay.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

What we have right now are provincial premiers who don't seem to understand what is happening in the area of health care for refugees. Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, and Saskatchewan all see this as downloading the costs to them.

My question, Minister, is fairly straightforward, and I would like a very brief answer, because my time is very limited. With all this in mind, it is the same question I asked yesterday in question period. Will you start listening to the premiers, stop downloading federal responsibility, and reverse these cuts?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

That's what we call a loaded question, Mr. Chairman, so I don't accept the premise of it.

Let me say that, first of all, we do fund cancer treatment. The member is entirely incorrect. We provide to asylum claimants a package of medically necessary physician and hospital services comparable to what provinces provide. Now, different provinces insure different drugs. For example, with respect to chemotherapy, we do fund coverage for chemotherapy. I'm correcting the member.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Ms. Sims, you asked a very long question, and the minister is entitled to answer your very long question.

Mr. Minister—

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I'm trying to provide a direct and substantive answer to, first, correct the record by pointing out that we do fund chemotherapy treatment for asylum claimants. Some provinces, however, do not provide the out-of-hospital pharmaceuticals they require, and the patients themselves pay for those. We've approximated that level of insurance that certain provinces do, that is to say, in-hospital, physician, medically necessary services, including chemo, but not for additional pharmaceuticals outside of hospital. It's the same in New Brunswick. It's the same in P.E.I. Ontario doesn't pay the full spectrum of out-of-hospital pharmas on chemotherapy, so just to set that aside.

Second—

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

—how would the member know what country this individual is from? She hasn't reviewed the file on it. I have.

Here's the problem with all of these kinds of cases, Mr. Chairman. Claimants and their advocates can go to the media and tell a story without revealing the facts and without signing a consent form so that we can actually release the facts. If I could release the facts on this case, it would support essentially what I said in the House of Commons yesterday.

I would simply say that everyone gets a fair crack at the Immigration and Refugee Board, but we don't think it's helpful to create a pull factor for example for people who perhaps have had asylum claims rejected in the United States and then come north.

Finally, I would point out that the provinces, if they’re concerned about the costs of this, could bank the $1.6 billion in savings that are coming to them through the reforms to the asylum system we're implementing next month, which are consequent to a $330-million investment we're making, or perhaps use the $26 billion in health transfers they're receiving from the Government of Canada.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

Will you at least agree with the Saskatchewan health minister's request to review the program now that we're beginning to hear what some of the impacts are on the ground?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

We've reviewed the program. We think we have the right balance. If the Government of Saskatchewan thinks that illegal immigrants or asylum claimants or other foreign nationals deserve a higher level of care than is available to some Canadians through some provincial plans, then they have the—

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you, Minister. I have one more question.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

—prerogative to provide such services.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

A review of the supplementary estimates by the Parliamentary Budget Officer shows that your department has identified only $2.3 million in savings, when the 2012 target is over $26 million.

I have a simple question. Where are the rest of the cuts coming from? Will the massive amount the department spends to monitor media perceptions be part of those cuts?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

First of all, the last part, it's not a massive amount. It's about a $250,000 media monitoring bill for ethnocultural media, out of a budget of $1.5 billion. That helps us to follow very closely how these reforms and immigration issues are being received in immigrant communities. I think it's a worthwhile investment.

On the overall spending reductions, they will be in the range of $71 million. We've furnished to the Parliamentary Budget Officer an outline of those changes, which I know the committee could obtain. This includes, of course, the $25-million reduction in the IFHP. It includes closing some offices. It includes administrative savings, for example, merging the prairie and western regions into one office rather than two, and things like that.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Lamoureux, go ahead.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Chair, it's interesting. The Minister of Immigration really didn't do his homework on the interim federal health cuts he made. He didn't do any consulting. Through freedom of information, we found that out that he didn't consult with anyone. Now Premier Brad Wall is calling into question the minister's ability to make good sound policy. The governments of Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec are calling into question this particular minister's ability to make good policy decisions.

Not a small group of doctors, Mr. Chairperson, but a significant number of health care professionals from coast to coast are calling into question this minister's ability to make good sound policy regarding this issue.

Is the minister prepared to meet with his provincial counterparts to see if there can be a policy that applies to all, on an equal basis, across Canada? Will he meet with all his counterparts together, collectively, not one on one?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I would suggest that maybe the opposition could make a good investment in media monitoring. If you did, you'd know that I just had a two-day meeting with all of my provincial counterparts. None of them raised this issue.