Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 28th, 2012

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

On this, there is a huge and uncontested body of research based on hard data.

For example, our own ministry conducted a major benchmark analysis of the outcomes from the federal skilled worker program. Basically, we linked tax data—data that is generic and doesn't identify anyone's name or disclose personal identity—with immigration data. We overlaid the two sets of data one on top of the other to see when people arrived, which program they came in on, based on what points they were assessed, and how they are doing economically.

We found that those with higher levels of language proficiency did substantially better; that younger immigrants do better, because they are more adaptable over their lifetime in Canada; that obviously those with Canadian work experience do better; and that those with pre-arranged jobs, when they come to Canada, do significantly better, generating, I believe, $78,000 in average income after their third year in Canada, as opposed to about $39,000 for those arriving without jobs. These are very useful data signposts for us.

By the way, this is not just our study. It's corroborated by all of the academic work that's been done in this area, by Charles Beach at Queen's, by researchers at universities all across the country. They all say that youth, language proficiency, Canadian work experience, and pre-arranged employment are the most important factors in the economic success of newcomers.

I emphasize that this is not to say that people can't succeed without those things; many do, but statistically speaking, those are the leading factors in terms of economic success.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You have two more minutes.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Two more minutes. Wonderful.

Minister, can you tell us why the current points system no longer meets the best interests of newcomers or of the Canadian economy?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

The current system, the one we're retiring, to speak in its defence, many other developed countries see our old points system as something of a model, in part because we were at least trying to attract people with relatively high levels of education and language proficiency. On the whole they did relatively well, but many, the vast majority, didn't.

I think it's in the range of 80% who did not end up working in the occupations for which they were trained. That's probably the biggest failure of the old system, that we just took people, we warehoused their applications for seven or eight years, brought them to Canada, and dropped them into the general labour pool to sink or swim. Many of them struggled to keep their head above water. Many of them ended up having to work in survival jobs, because they couldn't find employment in their particular area.

This is why I think we've seen, on average, the incomes for immigrants going from 90% of the average Canadian income in the mid to late 1970s to about 60% of the average Canadian income now. I think it's why we see the rate of unemployment among recently arrived immigrants twice as high as the general unemployment rate, and the rate of unemployment among immigrants with university degrees four to five times higher than it is for native-born Canadians with university degrees.

These numbers are unacceptable. They reflect a social reality of too many people who have left the high levels of employment in their countries of origin coming to Canada only to face frustration stuck at the bottom of our labour market. That is unacceptable.

I think there's a moral dimension in trying to get this right so the people we invite here don't feel as if they've been exploited, that we take their high levels of education and they become stuck at the bottom of the labour market. They need to come to work at their skill level, like young Mr. Gaurav Gore whom I met, our 20,000 CEC participant.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Ms. Sims, you have fewer than four minutes.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to move that the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration formally ask the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to undertake to the committee to release information that the PBO has requested on the cuts in his department.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Is that a motion?

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

The motion is in order.

Is there debate, Mr. Lamoureux?

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Can I open?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Yes, Ms. Sims, go ahead. I do remind you that this meeting will end at 5:25.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

The minister is here, and as we know, whenever you put a budget together, what's not in the budget is really critical because it informs us of where things are going. In order for parliamentarians to make informed decisions, and even for the PBO to do an assessment of where things are going, I think it is really critical that this information be shared.

I, as a committee member, would certainly like to have the information on the cuts to the department brought to this committee.

I know we've got numbers here and the minister gave us a couple of areas that he mentioned very briefly when he answered a question, but the critical thing for us as parliamentarians so we can do our due diligence on the budget is to get a very clear idea of where all these cuts are going to be happening so we can take a look at what the impacts are going to be before we make any decisions.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

To save time, Mr. Minister, will you give us this information? Is this information available?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

You mean the PBO request? We can provide the information that we provided, sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Okay.

Mr. Lamoureux.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

I do believe there is some merit in terms of what the member is talking about. When we look at the supplementary estimates that the minister has brought forward, one of the things that stuck out right away was the additional need for $5,200,000 for funding of the interim federal health program. Then he gave somewhat of an explanation.

I can recall when he first made the announcement, he talked about how this was going to save tens of millions of dollars, and I thought it was closer to $100 million, quite frankly that it was going to save over a five-year period. I think there's a need for us to get some clarification on this issue.

I can recall, for example, that in that announcement he said refugees will not get those extra benefits that the average Canadian is not receiving. These are the most vulnerable in society, so it's probably more applicable to refer to individuals on social assistance and so forth, and those individuals do receive benefits. Getting a better understanding of the numbers I think is really important for us as a committee, because the manner in which it's been presented to Canadians has been inconsistent.

When the minister made the announcement, he gave the impression it was going to apply to all refugees and then after a bit of embarrassment he came back and said he didn't mean the government-sponsored refugees. That seemed to be a bit of a flip-flop.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We have a point of order.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

We have a motion on the floor, so if there's a motion on the floor, that's fine. The motion on the floor doesn't give members the opportunity to question the minister on the motion.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

I'm not questioning him.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Well, you're certainly looking at him and looking for him to respond. If we're speaking directly to the motion, that's fine, and if you'd like to vote on it, you may want to hurry up.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

I'll continue, and this time I'll look—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Well, let me put it to you this way. I said that the meeting would end at 5:25. It is now 5:25. If members—

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I would like to vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Hold on, Ms. Sims. You keep directing me to do things, and one of these days I'm going to get mad at you.