Evidence of meeting #73 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was individuals.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Donald Piragoff  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister's Office, Department of Justice
Nicole Girard  Director General, Citizenship and Multiculturalism Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Eric Stevens  Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Superintendent Joe Oliver  Director General, Operational Prioritization and Protective Policing, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Michael Peirce  Assistant Director Intelligence, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Good morning, everyone. I think we'll start the committee. This is the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, meeting number 73, on March 21, 2013.

We are reviewing Mr. Shory's private member's bill, Bill C-425, An Act to amend the Citizenship Act (honouring the Canadian Armed Forces).

This morning we have the minister and some of his colleagues, who are going to make some comments on this bill.

Mr. Dykstra and I have often claimed to be the longest-serving members of this committee, currently, at least, but Ms. Chow has served much longer than we have, and it's a pleasure and a challenge to see her here today.

Minister Kenney, welcome to the committee, and thank you for coming. You have three of your colleagues with you, and I'll let you introduce them to the committee. As usual, sir, you have up to 10 minutes to make a presentation to the committee.

8:45 a.m.

Calgary Southeast Alberta

Conservative

Jason Kenney ConservativeMinister of Citizenship

Thank you, Chairman. Merci beaucoup.

I'm glad to see my former critic, Ms. Chow, back here, although I hope she's not going to plan on staying. She was the toughest critic I ever had, Mr. Chairman, but I welcome her back.

Perhaps I could invite our officials to introduce themselves, because I'm not aware of their precise titles.

8:45 a.m.

Donald Piragoff Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister's Office, Department of Justice

I am Donald Piragoff, senior assistant deputy minister, Department of Justice.

8:45 a.m.

Nicole Girard Director General, Citizenship and Multiculturalism Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

I am Nicole Girard, director general of citizenship and multiculturalism branch at Citizenship and Immigration Canada.

8:45 a.m.

Eric Stevens Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

I'm Eric Stevens in legal services at the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.

March 21st, 2013 / 8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Thank you to our officials for being here.

Thank you, colleagues. I appreciate this opportunity to speak in support of the private member's bill moved by our colleague, Devinder Shory from Calgary Northeast, Bill C-425.

This legislation aims to honour those who serve in the Canadian Forces by granting citizenship sooner to its members who are not already Canadian. While there is only a small number of permanent residents in the Canadian armed forces, it seems appropriate that these individuals, who are willing to put their lives on the line in the defence of Canada, should have access to an expedited process for citizenship.

I appreciate that Member of Parliament Shory is aiming to recognize the unique role played by our Canadian armed forces members and the sacrifices they make on behalf of Canada.

Secondly, as you know, this bill aims to protect the value of Canadian citizenship, as it would enhance our ability to take it away from those who undermine our national security and who threaten the fundamental values on which Canadian citizenship is grounded.

We believe that Canadian citizenship is about far more than the right to carry a passport. It's not just about privileges and rights; it's also about obligations and responsibilities. Citizenship defines who we are as Canadians, including our mutual responsibilities to one another and a shared commitment to values that are rooted in our history, values such as the importance of democracy, the rule of law, and fundamental human rights.

Canada has one of the highest naturalization rates in the world. Since 2006, for example, on average, over 170,000 permanent residents have become citizens per year. It is not surprising to me that so many people are eager to become citizens of the greatest country in the world.

Even if it was decades ago, most new Canadians tell me they still remember the day and the moment at which they became citizens. The day is special for many reasons, but taking the oath is the moment when a person makes a commitment to Canada and to the Canadian family. They promise to obey the laws of our country, to respect our traditions, and to be loyal to our head of state and our country.

Our newest citizens often tell me they wish to protect our citizenship, to strengthen it, and to deepen the sense of shared belonging. That is why the government launched the citizenship action plan three years ago: to strengthen the value of Canadian citizenship and to deepen attachment to it.

Colleagues, the government has undertaken measures to emphasize and encourage integration into Canadian society and ensure that citizenship has real, durable meaning.

As the bill is currently written, the deemed renunciation provision would apply to Canadian citizens who are also legal residents of another country. Should they not have dual citizenship, however, this could render some individuals stateless.

As you know, Chairman, Canada is party to the 1961 Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness, which we ratified in 1978. To ensure that we respect these international commitments, I would ask the committee to consider an amendment so that only those with dual citizenship would be deemed to have renounced their Canadian citizenship under the provisions proposed in this bill.

Furthermore, in its current form, the bill would deem a Canadian citizen to have renounced their citizenship if they engage in an act of war against Canada or the Canadian armed forces. But as I believe the committee has already heard from other witnesses, there is no clear definition of what constitutes an act of war. I would suggest, therefore, that the committee amend the bill by replacing that term with other acts that are more clearly defined in law.

It's important to note that under the 1947 Citizenship Act, a Canadian could have their citizenship taken away if they were convicted of having committed acts of treason, or if they served in the armed forces of a country that was at war with Canada, or if they unlawfully traded or communicated with the enemy during a time of war.

Indeed, prior to 1947, one's status as a subject could also of course be alienated on similar grounds, but more typically that occurred through capital punishment. There's the famous case of Kanao Inouye, the Kamloops Kid, Canadian born, who went to Japan during the Second World War, was a Japanese subject, committed war crimes against Canadian prisoners, and subsequently was executed following a court martial conviction following the war.

The remedy, if you will, for acts of treason was capital punishment, indeed up until some 20 years ago when it was removed from legislation.

I also think it is important to point out that the vast majority of the democratic world allows for the deprivation of citizenship for traitors and terrorists. The United Kingdom, France, the United States, Germany, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, and Switzerland are just some examples. In fact, we have done a survey of analogous legal provisions in other western liberal democracies, and so far we've identified only one that I'm aware of that does not have analogous provisions, and that is Portugal.

What Mr. Shory is proposing—and what I'm proposing as well in terms of amendments—would actually bring Canadian law into line with the overwhelming legal norm in the democratic world, and indeed with Canadian law prior to amendments to the Citizenship Act in 1977.

Individuals who are convicted of a terrorist crime in Canada or abroad should be deemed, in my view, through their own choices and actions—I repeat, through their choices and their actions—to have renounced their Canadian citizenship. Unfortunately, there is no shortage of examples for why these amendments are necessary.

I share the anger felt by Canadians at the recent discovery that a Canadian citizen is alleged to have been involved in the Hezbollah mass murder in Bulgaria. We believe this individual also has Lebanese citizenship. This is a man who came to Canada as a permanent resident, but about three years later he became a Canadian citizen and returned to Lebanon as a young man and has lived outside of Canada since that time.

Just a few days ago, as you know, media reports confirmed that one of the suspects in the horrendous terrorist attacks in Algeria recently was also a Canadian citizen.

Canadians are understandably outraged that someone would commit violent acts using our passport. If the allegations are true, these terrorists clearly have no sense of loyalty or commitment to our country. They have taken up arms and targeted innocent civilians on behalf of organizations that are proscribed illegal terrorist entities under Canadian law. Canada is an enemy of terrorism in general and certain terrorist organizations in particular, like Hezbollah, and to take up arms on their behalf, it seems to me, clearly constitutes a renunciation of the loyalty upon which our shared citizenship is predicated.

I'd also like to point out to colleagues that the vast majority of Canadians appear to agree with this premise. In fact, a live-caller poll conducted by Canadians last November indicated that 83% of Canadians strongly support the idea of revocation of citizenship from those convicted of terrorism or treason, as opposed to a small fraction who disagreed. This shows overwhelming public support for this notion.

I would also urge the committee to consider amending the bill to restore its application to dual citizens who are convicted of high treason. As was the case prior to 1977, I would urge the committee to consider amendments to ensure the bill would apply to someone who serves as a member of the armed forces of a country that is engaged in armed conflict with Canada. Given the recent examples I mentioned, I would also urge that it cover anyone who serves as a member of an organized armed group in armed conflict with Canada.

In Britain, for example, the government may revoke citizenship on very broad grounds if doing so is deemed to be “conducive to the public good”. In Switzerland citizens may lose their citizenship if they act in a way that causes serious prejudice to the national interest of the country. These examples are much broader than what I am proposing. The circumstances for deemed renunciation would be much more limited and much more clearly defined.

To be clear, if Bill C-425 is passed, there would be no change to processes currently applied in renunciation of Canadian citizenship cases. Appropriate legal safeguards would, of course, be in place. Notice would be given to the affected individual and due process would also be available, and any decision to take away one's citizenship would be reviewable by the courts.

The oath of citizenship and indeed this legislation reflect the idea that citizenship is founded upon the premise of reciprocal loyalty. If one violently renounces that reciprocal loyalty, we should consider that a renunciation of their citizenship. If citizens are convicted of serious terrorist offences, if they take up arms against Canada, or if they are convicted of high treason, those individuals have severed the bonds of loyalty that are the basis of their citizenship.

I should also note that these proposals do not distinguish between whether people with multiple nationalities were born in Canada or if they are naturalized citizens.

I do not anticipate that these provisions would impact many individuals. But their passage would deliver a strong message that Canadian citizenship is not a flag of convenience to be waved whenever it serves people's interest, particularly when they're committing some of the most terrible crimes conceivable.

Thank you very much, Chairman, for your attention. I'm happy to take any questions.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Weston has some questions of you.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Thank you.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

It occurs to me, given your Jesuit training, whether you were trained at a Jesuit school or as a lawyer, you are always looking at balancing and looking at the other side of the story. As I'm listening to what you say about Canada being the most wonderful place on earth—and I agree with that—I think perhaps citizenship is the warp and the weave of Canadianness. So you have a very important responsibility as minister for citizenship.

Critics have said that citizenship is an inalienable right. The other side of this story is that perhaps once you have that inalienable right you ought not to ever be put in a position to give it up. How would you respond to that, Minister?

9 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

First of all, the assertion that citizenship is inalienable is factually inaccurate. Citizenship is alienable under our current law; it always has been. If a naturalized citizen is found to have obtained citizenship through fraudulent means, we have the power and the obligation, I would argue, under the Citizenship Act to commence revocation proceedings, as we have done in many cases against such individuals.

Furthermore, individuals can alienate their citizenship of their own volition by making an application for renunciation. What Mr. Shory's bill proposes to do is to essentially expand the grounds for renunciation to a deemed renunciation based on people's actions. Here's the idea. We ought not to be narrow and legalistic about the process of renunciation of citizenship. If individuals go out and voluntarily take up citizenship in a country that is at war with Canada, for example, and they go and commit acts of war against Canada, we ought not to be so legalistic as to wait patiently for them to sign a form renouncing their citizenship. We ought to read in their actions the renunciation of their loyalty to Canada and indeed their citizenship. That's the premise here.

So, yes, citizenship is alienable, it always has been, it is in every other country, and those who suggest it's inalienable are creating a myth, frankly.

9 a.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

I was actually struck by your allusion to the Kamloops Kid. My father was a prisoner of war of the Japanese in the Far East, and that story really rings true. On the other side, we apologized to Japanese Canadians who were unfairly treated. They were citizens who lost their assets during World War II, and yet the Kamloops Kid basically did something that we would say was inconsistent with his citizenship. So it's a very interesting—

9 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I should say that in Canadian law, until fairly recently, capital punishment was for the crime of high treason, as it is in many other countries. That was certainly the case in 1947 when the Kamloops Kid, Mr. Inouye, was executed for, effectively, high treason.

9 a.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

You mentioned the term, “passport of convenience”. How useful is a Canadian passport for someone who is a terrorist, who wants to travel freely among nations? How useful is it?

9 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

It's extremely useful. What I have learned from intelligence briefings and from information in the public domain, media commentary, is that the Canadian passport is considered a high-value passport for terrorist operators because of the credibility of Canada and the Canadian passport. So we ought not to be naive. Now, of course, sometimes people obtain fraudulent passports, people who are not Canadian citizens. But we cannot exclude the possibility that people will on some occasions seek to obtain Canadian citizenship or use their Canadian citizenship precisely so they can move around the world raising fewer eyebrows and attracting less scrutiny in the service of terrorist organizations.

9 a.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Does that mean it's easier to enter a number of countries with a Canadian passport?

9 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Yes. I think that intelligence agencies agree unanimously that the Canadian passport is very valuable in these kinds of operations. That is why we have enhanced the security of the Canadian passport and why we have to strengthen the Canadian citizenship process.

9 a.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Minister, you have been consistent in building the value in Canadian citizenship, in the citizenship guide that you helped to redo and in so many other things.

You just mentioned that it wouldn't affect that many people, but it sends a valuable message. Do you want to elaborate on that point?

9 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Yes.

It's impossible for us to give a precise estimate of how many people it might affect, in part because that prospectively is a hypothetical question. But retrospectively, it would be a small number of people.

I just mentioned in my presentation the only two cases I'm aware of in the past couple of years that would seem to be immediately relevant to these provisions. That's the case of the Hezbollah member from Lebanon who is a Canadian citizen and the case of this individual linked to al-Qaeda who was involved in terrorist acts in Algeria.

We are talking about small numbers. Certainly I cannot see this affecting anything more than single digits. But I think the principle is hugely important, which is why virtually every single other western liberal democracy has a similar provision in their law. If you violently express your disloyalty to Canada, we should take that for what it is. We shouldn't be legalistic and wait for you to sign a form to renounce your citizenship if you have gone out and killed Canadian civilians, for example, in the service of a banned terrorist organization or another state whose citizenship you may carry.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Thank you, Minister, for your very full answers.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you.

Madame Groguhé.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for joining us today. Your being here is clearly important because the visit of the member for Calgary Northeast has left us with far more questions than answers with regard to Bill C-425.

Certain notions are still fairly ambiguous, as is the application of the whole bill, especially when it comes to the risk of individuals becoming stateless. In addition, the number of people who will be affected by the bill is very small. The Canadian Forces' representatives who testified told us that the legislation would affect about a dozen individuals annually.

Minister, I would also like to ask you about the amendments you mentioned you would like to propose. When will you introduce a concrete amendment proposal, so that the committee can examine it as quickly as possible?

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I am not a member of the committee, but I believe the amendment will be proposed during the clause-by-clause study of the bill. I have been working with the Parliamentary Secretary, Mr. Dykstra, on some potential amendments.

Among other things, I suggested amendments to specify the following.

Individuals who were members of a country's armed forces or members of organized armed groups that were engaged in armed conflict with Canada. Individuals who have been convicted of high treason under section 47 of the Criminal Code, or individuals who have been sentenced to five or more years of imprisonment for offences related to terrorism under part 2.1 of the Criminal Code. I talked about equivalent terrorism offences abroad where individuals were convicted of offences under sections 73 to 76 of the National Defence Act and were sentenced to life imprisonment for committing acts of treason. There are individuals who were convicted of offences under section 67 of the National Defence Act and were sentenced to life imprisonment. There are also individuals who were convicted of offences under section 130 of the National Defence Act for committing acts of high treason under section 47 of the Criminal Code—or for committing an offence related to terrorism, as defined in section 2 of the Criminal Code—and were sentenced to five or more years of imprisonment.

That's what I propose as far as amendments go. Those are the goals we mean to pursue when it comes to amendments to the bill. It will be the responsibility of the Parliamentary Secretary to propose those amendments using legal and technical language.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Minister, I hope that those amendments will come before the committee fairly early, so that witnesses can also give us their advice and we can examine the amendments properly. So, Mr. Dykstra, I think you should keep us posted.

Will the individuals affected by Bill C-425 be informed of any processes undertaken pursuant to that piece of legislation? What kinds of mechanisms will be provided to ensure that those people are kept informed? If they want to challenge a decision, what mechanisms can they use to formulate a challenge?

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

If the minister deems that an individual has committed an act that justifies the revocation of their citizenship, he could submit a request to the Citizenship Court. That way, the individual could make a submission to a citizenship judge, who would consider it before rendering a decision regarding the minister's request.

If a citizenship judge decides to accept the minister's request for revocation, he could submit an application for leave to the Federal Court.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you for the answer.

We know that Bill C-425 is an attempt to fast-track access to citizenship for those few people who have permanent resident status and who serve the Canadian armed forces. We learned last day that's 15 people per year in fact. At the same time, we are also quite aware that the backlogs to access citizenship are increasing. We learned a few weeks ago that there's been a 73% drop in the number of permanent residents receiving Canadian citizenship, and you yourself, Minister, acknowledge that this is happening largely because there are fewer people working for you to process those very applications.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

A point of order.