Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Sept. 26th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Instead of going back and forth, I will recommend—I'll give you a couple of minutes—that you all talk and then come up with something.

I'm going to suspend the meeting for a couple of minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

I hope all sides have come to a conclusion.

Madam Kwan, you have the floor.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Yes, we've come to an agreement on collaboration. To that end, I will withdraw the motion that I just moved and cede the floor to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe to move a motion.

After that, Mr. Chair, if I could have the floor to make an amendment to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe's motion, I would appreciate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Madam Kwan.

I will need unanimous support to withdraw the motion.

(Motion withdrawn)

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

The floor is still with Madam Kwan, and then Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Madam Kwan, do you have anything to add?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to move the following:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study of closed work permits issued by IRCC and their impact on temporary foreign workers; that the committee devote at least four meetings to conduct this study; that the committee invite the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship and IRCC officials to testify for one hour each, and invite any other witnesses the committee deems necessary; and that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Go ahead, Madam Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to propose an amendment to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe's motion by adding the following words: “and the findings related to Canada's Temporary Foreign Worker program by the United Nations Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of slavery, Tomoya Obokata; and that the committee invite the United Nations Special Rapporteur to appear before the committee for one hour”.

I would further amend it by adding that in addition to IRCC officials being invited, we would also invite officials from Employment and Social Development Canada to come to the committee for one hour.

Finally, we would reduce the four meetings to three meetings.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

Is there any further debate?

Mr. Redekopp.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Just looking at that, are we sure we want to go down to three meetings on that, with all that we've added into that one? We have the minister there and two different officials.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you have the floor.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That's exactly why I wanted the committee to hold four meetings. However, now that we've discussed it, it seems that everyone has agreed on three meetings. I sincerely believe that, with all the people we are inviting, that is to say the rapporteur, the officials, the minister and the witnesses we want to hear from, we should devote “at least four meetings”, as my motion states. That would enable us to devote than four if we want.

Ms. Kwan's amendment will shorten the study to three meetings, unless she uses the wording "at least three meetings", which would make more sense. That would be fine with us because we could add one if we feel so inclined, and we could hear more witnesses. I think my Conservative and Liberal friends will agree with that suggestion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

Mr. Redekopp is next.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Yes, I'd like at least three. If we can do three, great—I'm all for that—but I don't necessarily want to hamstring us into not being able to have somebody there. I would be okay with at least three. The goal would be to do it in three. That would be the point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Go ahead, Madam Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Chair, the reason why I'm suggesting reducing it to three is that I'm also looking at the variety of studies that we need to complete and at other things that will come up as well. Following this, there's another study, which we have already passed. That one calls for five meetings. I will have some suggestions to make to deal with that, so then you're looking at—if we go with four—nine meetings already.

There's another motion that I'd like to move to invite the minister to come to give the committee the minister's perspective on their priorities, along with four officials to come and give us an update on the fraud scam for international students, and that's going to take another meeting. We actually have another piece coming up that we can fully anticipate, which is that the minister, as well as officials, will need to come back for a discussion on the immigration levels numbers. That will be coming up this fall.

Then we have the fall economic statement, and then we're into the budget. Also, then, we still have a couple of outstanding items that we have to get through.

We just have a lot of items to get through, which is why I'm trying to save that one meeting. If we do three meetings, even with the minister—the minister and officials—that would take up one meeting, and then we'd have the UN rapporteur for one hour. You'd still have one and a half hours to complete. Then we have to write the report.

The closed work permit issue is very much related to the issue around regularization, so my subsequent suggestion to the committee on the motion that got passed on regularization and we will be studying is that we incorporate the evidence on closed work permits into that study as well. Then, through that study, if there are additional witnesses who want to speak specifically on the closed worker permit item, they would be able to do so under that new study. This is what I propose, just because I think that we don't have a lot of meetings.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

I have Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I understand. However, I think Ms. Kwan and I don't agree on the fact that regularization is closely linked to closed permits.

I want the committee to conduct a study on the impact of closed permits. My friends in the NDP should be sensitive to this issue. We've heard horror stories about workers with closed permits being exploited by employers. It has nothing to do with regularizing undocumented workers. It has to do with the status of temporary foreign workers with closed permits. As parliamentarians, I don't feel we should botch a study on such an important subject and on an issue where there are clearly serious consequences for human beings who come here, on Canadian soil, to work, send money to their families and make a better life for themselves.

I sincerely believe that we should hold at least four meetings, as my motion proposes. I feel we have no right to rush through a study on such an important issue. I will ask my friend Ms. Kwan again: I agree with the amendment she is proposing, but I suggest that we say “at least three meetings”. That way, if we feel that we need an extra meeting, at least we'll have that flexibility; it will be reflected in the wording of the amendment, which will officially become the motion.

I urge my colleagues to join me so that we can settle this once and for all and move on to something else.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

I have Madam Zahid and then Madam Kwan.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I agree with Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe and Mr. Redekopp about adding at least three meetings. Then in case we need to add another meeting, we already have that provision while we are undertaking the study.

In regard to the undocumented workers, the motion has already been passed. Once this motion is passed, then we can work on what study we will undertake and when. We have a few things in the pipeline for the committee to finish.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Madam Zahid.

Madam Kwan, you have the floor because it's your motion. Do you want to amend it, or do you want to ask me to go to the vote?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

If I'm understanding it correctly, if we change the wording to have at least three meetings, we would aim to finish the study at three meetings, and if we needed to come back to have an additional meeting, the committee would then make that determination. However, on this basis we're proceeding with three. Is that correct? ? If that is the proposal and understanding as to how we would like to proceed, I would agree to that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Madam Kwan. Do you want to see...? Is it already amended?