Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 8th, 2011

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Additional borrowing power would allow the Government of the Northwest Territories to be in a position of partnership on many of these things. As it stands now, with no capacity in the system, they can't even enter into a partnership on these kinds of deals. That was one of my real concerns: that we would have to ask companies from Alberta or from other places in Canada to develop our hydro system, because we have no internal capacity in the Northwest Territories to do it for ourselves. Without the borrowing capacity of the territorial government, we might end up losing resources. We might end up giving away resources that in most cases, in most provinces, they keep, and you know the pattern in provinces has been that hydro resources are owned by the province, not by someone from outside the province. That's a pattern we want to continue as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

Now we'll go to Ms. Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Dennis, for coming and for laying out pretty clearly the case for this bill.

You raised a couple of points around responsible government and still having NWT grounded in a very colonial approach in the federal government's relationships with the territorial governments. I think this case of the borrowing capacity is a good example of that.

I have a couple of points.

I just want to put on record the exact quote out of this letter of December 13 from the Parliamentary Budget Officer, because I know this has come up with the estimated costs. He says, “With respect to Bill C-530, our review indicates that there would be no incremental cost arising from adoption of these legislative amendments.”

I think it's important for that to be on the record, because I know it's a concern that people have raised. That's just a comment.

The second piece that I wanted to have you address is this: have you heard of any arguments against this bill, and if yes, what are they? I'd like you to present your counter-arguments. Have you heard any criticism of the bill, anything that you think is a legitimate concern that's been raised with the bill?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I think the answer I gave to Mr. Bagnell was that there was some concern about one area in the actual bill itself, and that was the determination of the gross revenues, but I think that staying below the 70% of gross revenues is a responsibility of the Government of the Northwest Territories.

We haven't taken out the provision within the act that if this is not adequate, in the end the Government of the Northwest Territories can go back to the cabinet. That provision within the bill would allow some discretionary move as well, if for some reason there was a very large requirement for fiscal capacity that went far beyond this. We have left it like that so that there is some flexibility.

I had a conversation with the finance minister, and he indicated to me that he thought this bill was moving in the right direction. My point to the government would be that I've got a bill that amends the NWT Act; it's in place, and we've gone through second reading, so if you want to accomplish this job, just take the bill over and finish it. It's there for you.

This is not a partisan issue. I really didn't want it to be a partisan issue, because it's all about something that all Canadians and everyone on both sides of the House can support--that is, giving people of the north the tools to do the job they need to do for all of Canada.

That's where I'm coming from. I reject the idea that this is in any way a partisan bill. It's not. It's just something that has to be done. If this is a convenient tool for Parliament to accomplish good work, then let's all get behind it and make it happen.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

In fact, I think what you pointed out is that if that's the criticism around the 70%, what you're actually talking about is a government that has a mature approach to self-determination. It seems reasonable that NWT should be able to make their own fiscal decisions without a father-knows-best approach to it.

In response to the question that Mr. Lemay asked about resources, I think you raised a point that perhaps many Canadians aren't aware of, in that right now NWT does not benefit directly from the resources in its territory.

I come from British Columbia where mines and other things are developed. The royalties come directly back to the province. The province then gets to determine how they're going to allocate that out of their general revenues. I think it's an important point to re-emphasize for Canadians who may be paying attention to this that NWT does not get to control those resources.

Do you want to add some further information to that, Dennis?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

There are two issues. One is royalties and the other is control of resources. Quite clearly this government and the Government of the Northwest Territories have decided, through an agreement in principle, to pursue control of resources in a better fashion. I see that as being a positive step. It just needs a little work.

When it comes to royalties, we see in many cases that the government is not willing to even put them on the table. One of the largest sources of royalties is the Norman Wells oil field. The government traded royalties for ownership, and now they won't even.... This has been a policy of the government for the last five or six parliaments. It's within the federal administration, and they won't even consider returning that to the Government of the Northwest Territories. It's out of the equation.

It's very difficult to deal with royalty issues. When you have the Norman Wells oil field, which produces in excess of $120 million a year for the federal government, and there is no access to that money at all—and they don't want to give access to it—it says how tough a dealing we have with the federal government on royalties.

Once again, this is not a partisan issue. It has been carried through many parliaments. This is a problem we have to resolve.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Do I have time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have about 20 seconds.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Is there anything you want to add in my 20 seconds?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

No, that's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Ms. Crowder.

Now we'll go to Mr. Rickford for seven minutes.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

On a point of clarification, you mentioned that you spoke with the finance minister. Which finance minister were you referring to?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

It was Mr. Flaherty.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

First of all, Mr. Bevington, I want to be clear: as you well know, there's a process in place. We're working collaboratively and in consultation with the Government of the Northwest Territories. In fact, discussions are well under way around the borrowing limit issue, and our thought, fairly confidently, is that they will be completed by 2011. That seems to be the way that federal, provincial, and territorial governments ought to carry out their business. I make that point because I'm a bit concerned about your use of “we” and “you” in your testimony, and indeed in answers to my colleagues.

It seems a bit unilateral when we see you here voting against the Northern Economic Development Agency. You voted against tax relief for your constituents when you voted against increasing northern residents' deductions, and today's proposal was apparently developed without the Northwest Territories government having its voice heard.

I can only go on quotes to substantiate that. Let's listen to what the Northwest Territories finance minister, Michael Miltenberger, said: ...we have indicated to the Member of Parliament for the Western Arctic that it's his right to pursue a Private Member's Bill...But we have made it clear that we have embarked upon a process with the federal Finance department and the other two territories to review our borrowing limit. That's the process we're engaged in. That's the process we are committed to. That's what we are paying attention to. That's where we see the issues with our concern of the borrowing limit being addressed and it's the one we're fully engaged in...The member of Parliament has a track that he's on but we're not involved with that.

Dave Ramsay, MLA for Kam Lake, said: ...I'm surprised that our Member of Parliament for the Western Arctic is down in Ottawa trumpeting Bill C-530.

The residents of this Territory would like to know who gave him his marching orders or...is he marching to the beat of his own drummer?

To my knowledge, our government has never talked about a percentage of expenditures as a debt limit.

Mr. Speaker, the federal government is currently analyzing and reviewing the debt limits of all three northern territories. Please, let's let them do their work.

Robert Hawkins, MLA for Yellowknife Centre, said: ...Who had given the Member of Parliament marching orders to act on our behalf?...Who has he talked to in this particular government? My concern is, of course, he has not talked to me and I've looked around and only heard of one person he has specifically spoken to, and I'm not sure if that was any more than water-cooler talk at the time.

Forgive me, Mr. Bevington, but this doesn't sound like overwhelming support from the territorial government. It certainly doesn't sound like your counterparts in the territory want you acting so unilaterally and paternalistically, and then you have a record down here that doesn't support a lot of the superordinate goals and interests of the constituents.

I'm going to ask, Mr. Bevington, first and foremost, can you provide this committee with the dates, names, and feedback for all formal consultations that you allege have taken place as part of the pre-emptive work you have done on this proposal? Can you answer in the yes or the no?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Yes. I actually have this available, and we will present it to the committee. I would--

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Do you have any response, Mr. Bevington, to the quotes of your colleagues, in fairness?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I would say—

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

That's the Minister of Finance for the Northwest Territories.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Okay. Here's the latest quote from the Minister of Finance, the Honourable Mike Miltenberger, yesterday in the Legislative Assembly.

Thank you. The route for a Private Member's Bill is fraught with many challenges and hurdles to clear. It has made some fairly good progress.

He is speaking to Bill C-530.

It's now before a committee after second reading. If, for example, a federal election comes, then the bill will die on the order paper. In the meantime, I think we'll want to keep our attention firmly fixed on the work that we're doing with the federal government, in terms of trying to resolve the borrowing—

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Respectfully, Mr. Bevington, that doesn't sound like a vote of confidence. What it sounds like to me is that he's grateful that there—

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Well, you have a government that is—

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Mr. Bevington, I'll ask the questions. How does that sound? You've got lots of experience.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Can I answer them?

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

At my discretion, you sure can. That wasn't a question.

That comment sounds to me as though he's very grateful that there's a process going on that legitimizes what the interests of the federal government and the territory might be with respect to this.

I have a list of technical questions that I can't possibly get into in seven minutes, but I will submit those questions and ask for a written response.

I'm curious. Your proposal suggests that the federal government needs to keep a borrowing limit on the Northwest Territories. Why do you think any borrowing limit is necessary? Why didn't you simply propose to remove the borrowing limit altogether?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Well, they have certainly established a borrowing limit within the concept of the NWT fiscal policy. I felt that this particular aspect, which I did discuss directly with the finance minister of the Northwest Territories, Michael Miltenberger, who is actually my next-door neighbour--