Evidence of meeting #52 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to you, Ms. Block, and thank you for appearing before us.

No doubt we all, around this table and in the House of Commons, share the principles of transparency and accountability, which we have criticized your own government on many times.

Your bill purports to address these principles. I would refute that. It does little or nothing to enhance transparency or accountability.

In terms of consultation, indeed I would like a list of the names and dates of individuals and people or organizations that you consulted with prior to the development of your bill. If you could produce that, I'd like to have that in written form and presented to the committee.

As you know, when it comes to aboriginal people, the duty to consult is a legal duty that we have, and we take that seriously. It's a policy the government has employed, or wants to abide by, I would hope.

There are those, Ms. Block, who say that it your bill violates the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. People say it's inconsistent with the inherent right of self-government, which the government purports to uphold. Many would say that it perpetuates stereotypes, that it is prejudicial, and that it smacks somewhat of racism.

I will only quote from the Quebec Native Women's Association from their November 29 press release, which said, and I quote,

QNW is concerned with the misleading portrait of the kind of fiscal transparency that is happening on reserves. While QNW--

--meaning the Quebec Native Women--

--believes that transparency and accountability for First Nations governments are an important part of good governance, the private members' Bill C-575, as presented by MP Kelly Block (Conservative Party) seems to be motivated by a prejudicial and racist view of Aboriginal peoples “as living off society”, by implying that the federal funds coming from “good tax payers' money” granted to Aboriginal chiefs and councillors are ill spent.

It seems to take a blanket approach to aboriginal peoples, aboriginal leadership, as all being somehow corrupt and inept. The examples you used are almost like a byline. We have this cloud of suspicion and insinuation, and then an apology saying that we don't want to spread that too far and giving the example of some first nation. If that were a byline.... It's never that there is good accountability, and the exception to good accountability and transparency is a few first nations.

In fact, the only stats provided by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation indicate that there were problems with only 7% of all elected officials.

When it comes to the issue of redundancy, I'm pretty sure you must be aware of the comprehensive funding arrangement, the national model that INAC has in place, that calls for generally accepted accounting principles and auditors general. I'm sure you're also aware of the year-end financial reporting handbook from Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, which has, as Annex D, a schedule of salaries, honoraria, travel expenses, and other remuneration all listed right there. It's the same thing that your bill purports to now open up. It's all there, so I believe the bill is redundant.

When we talk about consultation, one can use the words that it was unilaterally brought in, and in your own testimony speaking in the House, as noted in Hansard, you said, “I also, in speaking with my colleagues...”. That sounds like water cooler talk, sitting around talking across a few snacks and a coffee, and you bring in bills about something so fundamental to first nations people.

I want to ask you one very simple question in addition to the ones I've already asked. You've been in power for six years. Why only now did this suddenly become an issue for the government, if there were egregious issues of accountability and transparency throughout this time? Whatever happened to the collaborative efforts with first nations that were taking place in 2005 and 2006? Why was that not continued? The issue of a first nations auditor general was even being talked about in 2005-2006. Why didn't those efforts continue? Is there anything that could have stopped the minister? What legally was stopping the minister from taking this information and making it public?

Could the minister not have adjusted his policies in either of those two documents and made this information public? What was stopping him? What was fundamentally different, except that now we have this huge issue, and it's causing divisions and enhancing stereotypes?

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

There are so many statements there. I don't agree with the premise of the statements that were made.

What I will tell you is this: if you have questions as to why this wasn't done prior to my introducing this bill, I think those questions are better posed to the minister himself in regard to why something wasn't done before this.

I became aware that this was an issue for first nations community members seeking access to this very information, which is why, when my opportunity came forward to introduce a private member's bill, I saw it as a meaningful issue and took the opportunity to introduce it into the House of Commons.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

What made you aware of this? Was it the talk around the cooler?

Can you give us a list of who approached you, of who you consulted with? Can you provide that to us prior to the development of this bill?

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Mr. Chair, I think I made it very clear in some of my answers in the House when this bill was being debated that I didn't conduct formal consultations. In fact, you may be very aware that when a first nations member comes forward to talk to you about issues in their community, they're not that willing to have their name brought forward; many of the conversations and emails that I had were kept within the context of confidentiality, and I respect that confidentiality as a member of Parliament.

As a member of Parliament for two years, I've been out in the community, I've been intentional in developing relationships with first nations members, and I've been intentional in paying attention to the issues.

Thank you.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you, Mr. Russell.

It is now Mr. Lemay's turn for seven minutes.

9:55 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Good morning, Ms. Block.

Tell me, how many aboriginal communities are there in the riding of Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar?

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

I do not have any reserves in my riding. There is one urban reserve, which is actually a business. I have a large urban aboriginal population in my riding, perhaps the largest in Saskatoon.

9:55 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Did you meet with anyone from the Prime Minister's Office in preparing Bill C-575?

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

No, I did not.

9:55 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Did you meet with anyone from the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development's office before introducing Bill C-575?

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Certainly in conversation with my colleagues, I spoke with members of this committee in terms of whether or not this was an--

9:55 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Forgive me for interrupting. I mean the office of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. Did you meet with anyone from the minister's office, such as a deputy minister or a regional director? I do not mean with anyone on the committee.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

No, I did not meet with the regional director or the deputy minister. I did talk with staff regarding how I would go about introducing a bill of this nature.

9:55 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Did you meet with anyone from the Auditor General of Canada's office before preparing Bill C-575?

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

No, I did not.

9:55 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Did you read the Auditor General's 2002 report on accountability in aboriginal communities?

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

No, I did not.

9:55 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Do you know how many reports an aboriginal community or a reserve has to produce for Indian and Northern Affairs Canada on an annual basis?

10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Yes, I do. I believe what I have heard quoted is that approximately 168 reports are submitted to INAC.

10 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Are you aware that, regardless of whether there are 2,000 or 50,000 people in the community, it still has to submit 168 reports to various government agencies?

10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Yes, I'm aware that these reports are submitted annually.

10 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Are you aware that aboriginal communities have to include information on the salaries paid to chiefs and councillors in some of those 168 reports? That information is in those reports. Did you know that?

10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Mr. Chair, I am very aware that first nations provide a schedule of remuneration and expenses to INAC as required by their funding agreements. However, what my bill is addressing is the call for this information to be publicly disclosed.

10 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Forgive me, but do you know that those reports are available to the public if you request them under the Access to Information Act?

10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

I have been made aware that individuals can request this information through an access to information request. However, I'm also aware that much of the information is redacted.