Evidence of meeting #7 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was content.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Maureen Parker  Executive Director, Writers Guild of Canada
Rebecca Schechter  President, Writers Guild of Canada
Peter Murdoch  Vice-President, Media, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada
Michel Ouimet  Executive Vice-President, Québec, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada
Alain Pineau  National Director, Canadian Conference of the Arts
Garry Neil  President of Neil Craig Associates, Canadian Conference of the Arts
Solange Drouin  Vice-President and Executive Director, Public Affairs, Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo
Ferne Downey  National President, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists
Stephen Waddell  National Executive Director, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists

9:55 a.m.

President, Writers Guild of Canada

Rebecca Schechter

As I said in our presentation, it's quite possible now that one would be hired to write something for the Internet that would end up on television, or with a mobile phone company that wanted specific dramatic content partly to lure customers into buying their service. They could do that, and they're integrated now, so if it becomes a success, it might end up online. We've also seen a growing number of cases that involve web series; people are hired to write small dramatic series for the Internet, which are then being put together and appearing on television. It's only a matter of time before this goes through mobile as well, because mobile is one of the main platforms now for alternate viewing of dramatic material.

As far as content and Canadian stories go, this is a challenge in our current system with our current laws and our current regulations. We as an organization are lobbying the CRTC to strengthen our ability to tell our stories and to ensure that our domestically owned broadcasters still hire us to do that, because their interest is just to show American programming.

From Mr. Pineau we had the example of film. It's different in television because it is regulated, but it's not easy. It's still a struggle. Put foreign owners and American broadcasters, who are the strongest entertainment bullies in the world, into the mix, and we'll need good luck to have a chance of keeping a foothold with our own stories about Canadian life. We might still employ Canadian writers, but they'll be writing about American life, and that's what we don't want.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Mr. Murdoch, go ahead.

10 a.m.

Vice-President, Media, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada

Peter Murdoch

You know, I think this is.... It's the post office. It's television. It's even a phone. It's a game. I mean, it's everything. And there's no way to disentangle that. Not only that; I don't believe any telecommunications company or broadcasting company really wants you to.

There's an old Arab saying: the dogs bark, but the caravan moves on. Well, you know, this caravan is moving on. I don't think there'll be any way we can disentangle that. Maureen and others have already spoken to what this means for culture.

What we have here now, as you know, is Canada's largest media empire, Canwest, in bankruptcy protection in both its television operations and its newspapers. On the television side, the leverage held by an American investment company, Goldman Sachs, inevitably is going to decide who is going to own that Canadian company. It's going to be an American investment company making that decision--sadly, because of a CRTC decision.

We're there, and it's frightening, because it's quite possible that we're going to see even further concentration of ownership.

That's enough from me.

10 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

It'll probably be a private equity firm that holds that. We won't even know.

10 a.m.

Vice-President, Media, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you very much, Mr. Murdoch.

So that people looking at the transcript of this committee later will understand, I'll just note for the record that when you were talking about “this”, you were referring to your BlackBerry.

10 a.m.

Vice-President, Media, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada

Peter Murdoch

Thank you.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

We'll suspend the meeting for two minutes to allow the panels to switch.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

We've come out of suspension. We'll now go to our second hour of witnesses.

We have in front of us two different groups.

First, we have Ms. Solange Drouin, from the Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo. Then we have representatives from the Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists.

We'll begin with opening statements from the two different groups, beginning with Madam Drouin.

10:05 a.m.

Solange Drouin Vice-President and Executive Director, Public Affairs, Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo

Good morning.

My name is Solange Drouin. I am Vice-President and Director General of Public Affairs at ADISQ.

First, I want to thank you for inviting us to appear before you today to discuss and consider with you the important issue you have undertaken to study under your current terms of reference.

I will tell you at the outset that ADISQ believes ownership is key in the development of Quebec and Canadian song. Perhaps I can add a few words about the organization I represent.

ADISQ is a professional association representing producers of discs, entertainment and videos that mainly develop the careers of French-speaking Canadians both in and outside Quebec. For more than 30 years now, ADISQ has been carrying out its mandate to implement a legislative, regulatory and financial framework to foster development of French Canadian song. We do not favour Canadian ownership for purely ideological reasons, but rather because it has proven itself, I would note, for more than 40 years. The people who adopted these measures were great visionaries and, in the current context, I hope to convince you that they still are.

This extent of Canadian ownership is good for artists, for businesses and for Canada. Today, the Canadian music industry is doing well and businesses are prosperous. We are very pleased about that. I would like to illustrate how we in our industry view the role that Canadian ownership has played. Independent Quebec producers, who I am representing today, are responsible for more than 95% of released albums of Quebec singing artists. When it comes to buying discs, 4 out of 10 Quebeckers choose discs by Quebec artists rather than those by international artists. This is a great success for which we are envied in a number of markets.

However, this has not been a spontaneously-generated result. It has been made possible, of course, by the talent of the artists and the vitality of the entrepreneurs, but also by all the government measures that have been established in a sustainable manner, that have had their effects and are still having those effects. In analyzing all government measures, it is very easy to understand why Canada and Quebec were champions of implementation of the UNESCO Convention on the Protection and Promotion of the Diversity of Cultural Expressions. Nationally, we believed in the lasting impact of the cultural policies in place. As I said, one of the key parts of our success in our industry has been the imposition of quotas by the CRTC on French-language radio stations. As I hope you know, this is a 65% quota for French-language vocal music.

This window guarantees us access to the Canadian audience and also enables singing artists to reach their audience. The act of creation must not be dissociated from distribution. To promote creation, you have to be concerned with the successful distribution of that creation; you cannot have one without the other. This 65% requirement for French-language vocal music and 35% Canadian content, as you know as well, was made possible by the fact that the government was able to exercise control over Canadian businesses. Obviously, in actual fact, that made a difference, and today, the results I was talking about are possible.

In the music industry, we unfortunately saw an eloquent example of what could happen to content requirements if the Canadian ownership condition were not in place. We witnessed that experiment very recently. In 2005, XM Radio and Sirius Radio applied to the CRTC for a pay audio programming undertaking licence. Those two companies proposed to use a foreign satellite to broadcast their products in Canada. As that was not permitted, the CRTC had to assess the possibility of using a foreign satellite to provide a programming service. The government deviated from its principle regarding the use of Canadian satellites for the purpose of that service. What happened? XM Radio and Sirius Radio unfortunately convinced the CRTC that, in view of the lack of capacity of the foreign satellite broadcasting their products in the United States, the CRTC could not set requirements on the French-language and Canadian content levels it would have wished to have. Consequently, in its decision, it granted ridiculous French-language content percentages. I repeat what I said at the time. It was only 10% French-language content, whereas it was 65% for radio stations, for example. When the CRTC analyzed this kind of service way back in 1995 or 1996, 25% of stations had to be francophone.

Our Canadian service is what it is because of the lack of space on a satellite we do not control. So there is a ridiculous amount of francophone and Canadian content that isn't any better.

For us, this is really a very practical and important illustration of what the lack of Canadian oversight of programming services could do even with a broadcasting act. The ownership principle, which was frequently criticized in that decision and for which we were not heard, tells us that you really have to control the entire chain of distribution channels in order to really achieve our ends and implement our policy.

Today, as we know—and I would be very open to the idea of discussing this with you—the distribution channels we're talking about have increased in number and diversity. The music industry—I'd like to talk about that, if you give me the opportunity during the question period—radio and telecommunications are going through major upheavals. The telcos are now users—I would emphasize that we said that—and the distribution businesses offer telecommunications services, and it's not over.

There have been study groups such as yours, and commissions, and reports have been produced for more than 15 years. It's not as though we have just started talking about convergence. I was here 15 years ago and they were talking about convergence at the CRTC. I was at ADISQ, but they were talking about it at the CRTC. The situation is merely accelerating right now. I'm somewhat surprised today to hear people deny this convergence as we're talking about it. This is in your working group and study group documents. I'm a bit surprised that this convergence isn't an established fact for everyone.

In its wisdom, the Government of Canada took care to develop telecommunications and broadcasting legislation by issuing governing policies in each of the sectors, concerning, obviously, foreign ownership, national sovereignty and content. The first step, in my view, before doing what you are doing today, which is to assess one aspect of that policy, would be to review all of those policies in order to consider whether they are still on track, whether they are obsolete today since, as I was saying, they were implemented more than 40 years ago. In our opinion, the real question would be to review the policy as a whole and then we could perhaps see whether ownership is the right way to go. You've come up with a measure before even analyzing whether anything should be changed. There's nothing to be removed from the telecommunications and broadcasting policies. They were well thought out. There were really more intelligent people than us in government 30 and 40 years ago.

We think that, whereas convergence should mean there are more of these governing policies addressing businesses that take on a number of functions, some claim that convergence should put an end to policies. In their view, the more different functions a business takes on, the fewer obligations it has toward Canadian society. It's quite surprising to hear that. With all due respect, we assert that it is the complete opposite that should occur.

In conclusion—and I know I have probably almost finished—I would like to go back to one point and the objective that have been referred to here, and to continue on the fact that consumers are entitled to better service and the lowest possible price. This is a highly praiseworthy objective, as Maureen Parker said earlier.

I have six points for your consideration, and here's the first. In my opinion, this isn't an ideology that we should pursue blindly, in the sense that it must not be the only focus of our case analyses. If consumers got what they wanted, that would be the best service for nothing. As a French friend of mine recently said, I want to pay nothing for my steak and chips. And that's what consumers want. That can't be the only thing.

10:15 a.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

In euros or in dollars?

10:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

10:15 a.m.

Vice-President and Executive Director, Public Affairs, Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo

Solange Drouin

Second, before concluding that Canada is poorly served, I invite you to reread the 2008 CRTC Communications Monitoring Report, the title of which no longer includes the words “radio-television and telecommunications”, but rather “communications”. It can be seen in that report that Canada is not at the head of the class in certain respects, but that it is doing very well in others. So before concluding that Canada is really very bad in the area of telecommunications, I suggest you draw some major distinctions.

Third, the telecommunications ground rules have changed. It's true that we started out with a monopoly, but, as you know, there has been a frequency auction, and new players will be appearing in the market—they are appearing already, whether they are being challenged or not. This will change the landscape. We should perhaps wait to see how things change before changing anything else.

Fourth, I would like to address the issue of foreign capital percentages. When we listen to you from Montreal, when the telecommunications people appear before you, I would be very pleased to hear you ask a number of questions about the percentage of foreign capital they already have in their businesses. I bet you they haven't yet filled up on foreign capital, as provided by the CRTC measures, or in the manner in which they are permitted, that is 20% and 33% of the holding companies. Please ask them that question because we can't get access to those answers. Make sure they answer you.

Lastly, with regard to having to cut prices for consumers, I ask you to look at the profit margins of those businesses. In 2008, margins reached 46% for their wireless telephone operations.

First, they're seeking foreign capital. And yet, I imagine that, with 46% profit margins, they must have a little money in the bank and perhaps some money to invest. So do they really need foreign capital?

Second, why isn't there any return to consumers if those profit margins are so high? In my environment, I'm not used to living with businesses that have 46% profit margins because they don't exist.

Lastly, for new entrants, this no doubt means that, for Canadian businesses that have not yet thought about it, there's a lot of money to be made in this industry and it would be good to invest in it.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you, Ms. Drouin.

Now let's go to ACTRA.

10:15 a.m.

Ferne Downey National President, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists

Thank you.

Mr. Chair and committee members, good morning. My name is Ferne Downey, and I am an actor and the national president of ACTRA. Today with me is Stephen Waddell, our national executive director.

Thank you for having us here today and for giving us this opportunity to speak on behalf of 21,000 performers in film, television, sound recordings, and radio and digital media who live and work in every corner of our country.

Canada's professional performers believe that ownership of our cultural industries by Canadians is crucial not only for our cultural sovereignty but also for our economic sovereignty.

We also believe it is a mistake to think you can relax foreign ownership rules for telecommunications without negatively impacting Canadian culture.

With increasing corporate consolidation and the rapid evolution of technology, telecommunications and broadcasting are quickly converging. Vertical integration means that telephone companies own cable, broadcast and satellite assets, and cable companies own telecommunications, satellites and broadcasters. Moreover, content is being delivered to Canadians through all of these channels. Telecoms and ISPs are effectively becoming broadcasters. You can no longer separate them.

If Rogers, Telus, and Bell's telecom interests are sold off to foreign interests, we will lose control not only of our telecom and satellite industries; we'll be one small step away from ceding complete control of our broadcasting and media industry. To me, that would be catastrophic.

Canadian broadcasting is a public good. It is critical to the health of our democracy and our unique cultural identity. Broadcasting shapes our opinions, our outlook on our community, our nation, our world, and ourselves. It is too influential, too precious, and too tied to who we are to let it fall into foreign hands.

We are already largely dominated by American culture. Our films barely make it into the multiplexes, and we struggle and struggle and struggle to get Canada's private broadcasters to schedule our own programs in prime time. Our culture certainly cannot survive, let alone thrive, if our prime-time schedules are dictated by executives at NBC Universal in Los Angeles.

A healthy democracy needs diversity in programming choices and editorial opinions. We cannot have a healthy democracy when all of our newsrooms are in New York, Washington, and Chicago. How will we know what is happening in our communities? How will you, our elected leaders, communicate and learn about your constituents?

We believe Canadian voices are worth hearing, sharing, and celebrating. We must not open the door to foreign ownership and allow those voices to be drowned out.

I will ask Stephen Waddell to talk some more about the negative impact of opening up foreign ownership of telecommunications.

10:20 a.m.

Stephen Waddell National Executive Director, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists

Good morning.

The desire to make our telecommunications and broadcasting industries stronger, to make them global players, to be able to attract the best ideas, push innovation, and increase our country's wealth--I get all that. But I don't agree that opening the doors to foreign investment is the only way, or the best way, to do that.

I also do not think that the drive to the top should be pursued at any cost. We've seen what happens to other industries when they are bought out by foreign companies. They come up here for a while, take advantage of some tax breaks, then shut the plant down and ship the equipment overseas, tossing Canadians aside to the unemployment line, their skills and knowledge with them.

In 2008, communication industry revenues accounted for nearly 4.5% of Canada's gross domestic product. Broadcasting revenues accounted for approximately one-quarter of that amount, and telecommunications revenues accounted for approximately three-quarters. These industries are simply too economically vital to be left to the whim of foreign conglomerates.

Canadians agree. We did a poll with CEP and Friends of Canadian Broadcasting that showed that 66% of Canadians believe broadcasting and communications are too important to our national security and cultural sovereignty to allow foreign control of Canadian companies in this sector.

These industries are the future of our knowledge-based economy. If we have no control or no voice, we will lose control not only of our culture but of a huge piece of our economy.

Canada is not alone in keeping the lid on foreign ownership. Almost half of OECD countries have restrictions on the ownership of telecommunications and broadcasting, including the United States. Sure, American companies trot around the globe snapping up other people's industries, but they look after their own.

Spain, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Korea, and Japan also have restrictions. Yes, some have more liberal restrictions than Canada, but none of them are sitting within broadcasting distance of the biggest exporter of English-language cultural material in the world. We are uniquely vulnerable. It follows that we must be vigilant.

Some argue that foreign ownership is the golden ticket to giving Canadian consumers a break on their mobile and cable bills. There's no question that Canadians are being gouged by cable and telecoms. The problem here isn't lack of foreign ownership; it's lack of regulation. There is no evidence that allowing foreign ownership brings down cable or wireless bills and makes prices fairer, but there is proof that regulation does.

Besides, the government didn't need to bring Wind in through the back door to create more competition. We have a number of Canadian companies entering the market. Public Mobile has opened its doors, and Craig Wireless; Mobilicity and Vidéotron are not far behind. Why wouldn't we support our own and keep the money and innovation in our country?

We believe Canada's identity and culture will ultimately be undermined by the federal government's decision to grant a licence to Globalive, an Egyptian-owned and -controlled company, to operate a wireless service in Canada. The Globalive decision doesn't square with the requirements of the Telecommunications Act, including the requirement that all communications carriers be effectively owned and controlled by Canadians.

Both the telecommunications and broadcasting acts are quite clear, and I quote: “A Canadian carrier is eligible to operate as a telecommunications common carrier if it is a Canadian-owned and controlled corporation incorporated or continued under the laws of Canada or a province”. Further: “The Canadian broadcasting system shall be effectively owned and controlled by Canadians”.

The bottom line is that Canadians need to control our telecommunications and broadcasting. Current limits to foreign ownership must be maintained to ensure that our broadcasting and telecommunications industries are controlled by Canadians for Canadians.

Thank you. We'd be happy to respond to any of your questions.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you very much.

We'll begin with Mr. Rota.

April 1st, 2010 / 10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us today. I would like to make a few comments on what Ms. Drouin said. That was very interesting. Changes were made 30 or 40 years ago. When I was young, we heard French songs from France. However, the quota and changes have made it possible for Quebec and Canadian songs to take their place. So that means the government plays a role in Canadian culture.

I'm going to just continue on the intertwining and convergence of satellite telecommunications and broadcasting and how they're coming together. Ms. Drouin gave an example about XStream and Sirius coming in and Canadians getting bumped off. That's one of the concerns I have, especially in the satellite business, because it seems that's the first one that people are starting to examine and want to get rid of because it's international. We don't have to worry about it.

We've seen the introduction of high-definition television, which takes substantially more bandwidth. Now 3-D television is coming up, and I believe it takes two and a half times more again. So we're seeing expanded requirement for bandwidth, and that's coming exponentially. Before we know it we'll all be watching 3-D television.

This is what concerns me. Similar to what happened with XStream and Sirius, as we need more bandwidth and band space, who's going to take that up, and where is it going to come from if the satellite companies aren't Canadian-owned or aren't regulated under Canadians laws?

So my question is this: as our demand for bandwidth expands, how do you see that affecting Canadian culture and affecting you in your jobs?

10:25 a.m.

National Executive Director, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists

Stephen Waddell

Thank you for the question.

It's certainly going to be a challenge, but I think Canadians are up to it, and I think Canadian companies are up to it. Certainly Canadian creators are ready for that challenge.

Again, there's no significant proof that we can't in fact provide the capital in this country to acquire that bandwidth. It's certainly our view that the regulations should remain. The restrictions and the caps on foreign ownership should remain on telecommunications satellite and broadcasting. Capital is certainly available in this country to finance the expansion of the bandwidth, and clearly you've heard that evidence here today. We believe it's not necessary to cede control of our satellites, our telecommunications system, and our broadcasting system to foreign interests.

10:30 a.m.

Vice-President and Executive Director, Public Affairs, Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo

Solange Drouin

I'd like to go back to your first point.

Both Canadian and Quebec cultural policies have contributed to the development of Quebec culture. I can attest to that in the case of song more than in any other field. In that area, I often still hear things that surprise me. such as, for example, that this success in Quebec is due to the fact that we speak French and these are French-language songs. You have to know little about the singing world to say such a thing. If there is one cultural sector where it is easy for other cultures to penetrate, it is song. If people like French-language song from Quebec, it's not because they speak French: it's because the singing is good, and there has been financial support and regulation. People have discovered song, love it and now support it. That's very important in my mind.

I've also heard it said that, since things are going well now, it's no longer necessary to apply rules. That makes me think of a situation that I recently experienced. Someone whom I adored told me he was taking pills for high blood pressure but that he could stop taking them now since his blood pressure had stabilized. What will happen to him if he stops taking them? His blood pressure will go back up. I know this is trivial and that my example seems stupid, but I think this corresponds exactly to what is going on. It's not because things are going well that you should open everything up now. It's because we have this that things are going well. We must especially maintain the policies in effect so that things continue to go well. You must not imagine that we can withdraw all the rules in Quebec or Canada, that our culture is solid and that the Americans won't try to invest in our market because they're no longer interested in doing so. They've always been interested in that. That's still the case today. If we give them even the smallest of opportunities, they will come back into our market in force.

You also talked about those satellites. This is a field I had no knowledge in, but I did some research. We had to organize an accelerated course on the subject. I imagine Mr. Garneau knows more than we do about the issue. He can correct me if my remarks are incorrect. A satellite is a telecommunications business, not some other thing. If you open the door to foreign ownership of satellites, you will be opening it to telecommunications businesses. There are no specific provisions regarding satellites in the Telecommunications Act: there is an ownership rule for all telecommunications businesses, and it also applies to satellites.

I'm a lawyer by training, and when I heard, in connection with the budget, that we were going to start with satellites, I really wondered how that could be. A satellite is a telecommunications business. By changing the ownership of satellites, we will be opening the door even further. If that is not the case, I would like to know how you intend to proceed. Perhaps the lawyers will be more creative. I entirely agree with you that 3D will really require much more space in view of the fact that films and song, in particular, are increasingly broadcast via those satellites. Incidentally, we were already calling them death stars a very long time ago. That's true; you can check it.

BCE has just sold Telesat to Loral and another organization for $3.25 billion. They have 13 satellites. This is a Canadian business that became the fourth largest satellite supplier in the world. The BCE people talked about what a good deal they had made by selling Telesat, and the buyers said what a good deal that purchase was for them. If they paid that price, it was no doubt because they want to develop the field. I believe in the development of Canadian satellites.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you, Ms. Drouin.

Mrs. Lavallée.

10:35 a.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

First, I want tell you that I usually sit on the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. I am the Bloc Québécois heritage critic. It's strange for me to sit here on the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology.

However, you must understand that the Quebec cultural world is very concerned about foreign ownership in telecommunications. In fact, everyone in the cultural field to whom I've spoken in Quebec tells me that telecommunications and broadcasting are the same. There's no doubt on that score. A number of people are even asking that the two acts, telecommunications and broadcasting, be merged because you can't tell the difference between the two.

Even Mr. Wilson, who wrote the report that has brought us here today and who submitted it two years ago, said it was very difficult to tell the difference even then. In spite of everything, he recommended just opening up telecommunications, not broadcasting. The industry department representatives come here and tell us they'll just be handling telecommunications, not broadcasting. That's impossible. In any case, I don't understand that.

Our colleague, Mr. Garneau, for whom I have a considerable degree of respect—I find him intelligent, brilliant—said he was pleased that they were handling only telecommunications.

I have a host of examples. The example I usually give everyone is wireless. It's considered a telecommunications business, in the Government of Canada's view. And yet we see that they make major cultural choices. They influence consumers in their cultural choices. By offering 16 applications, virtually half of which are American... This example concerns English Canada, but I figure that, if those applications were sold in Quebec, there would be no Scotiabank, but I imagine there would be the Mouvement Desjardins; there wouldn't be any MacLean's magazine, but there would be L'actualité and Le Journal de Montréal. In any case, they make cultural choices that influence consumers from a cultural standpoint.

Have you observed the same thing? And how can you cite examples in your field, and attest to them, to convince the other people around the table who are not yet convinced?

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

We're almost there.

10:35 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

10:35 a.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

I know we will never be able to convince the Conservatives.