Evidence of meeting #56 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Dean and Professor, Faculty of Engineering, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I could draw the same analogy with regard to the cost of delivering engineering education. For example, we deliver a very high quality of education that's recognized all over the world, but this comes at a price, and this price, of course, is going up every year.
The fact is that our funding for the education component of our mission is coming from basically two main sources. It's coming from provincial governments through the grants they provide to universities and through tuition fees that the students themselves are paying.
What we've seen over the last few years is that basically it's getting more and more challenging to get the revenues that are necessary in engineering schools to deliver the quality education that we're expected to deliver. Provincial governments in many provinces are divesting. They're reducing their investment in post-secondary education, with the result that you will find that in many jurisdictions tuition fees are going up. Being from Ontario, we probably have a less than enviable record on that front.
This, of course, is putting challenges on the schools, but it's also making an engineering education something that is becoming more and more of a challenge for students who are coming into our schools, because the cost is going up.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Could I just follow up on that point? You're probably talking more about undergraduate education, but you are also talking about a shortage of Ph.D.s and master's degrees. I'm just wondering about the funding in that area, a lot of which comes from the federal level through NSERC. How is that holding up?
4:05 p.m.
Dean and Professor, Faculty of Engineering, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Again, the funding is there. The funding is necessary for us to be able to deliver at the graduate level, but what we see also on the granting council side is that the rate at which that funding is increasing is not aligned with the rate of the increase in our student enrolment in graduate programs, for example, and the increases in costs.
4:05 p.m.
President, Canadian Academy of Engineering
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I mentioned in my brief notes that the notion of greater engineering input into public policy would be helpful. I'll give you an example.
There are rapidly changing technologies in a lot of areas, not just in information and communication technologies. I'll give you an example that has to do with natural gas. In 2008 or 2007, natural gas prices were going up. We thought there wouldn't be enough natural gas in many parts of the world. We were gearing up to actually build LNG plants to import natural gas to B.C. and to Alberta simply to serve the needs of various industries, including the oil sands industry.
The dramatic introduction of the fracking process, which industry insiders were aware of, completely transformed the landscape of natural gas. Those who were aware of the research and those who were aware of the investments—the venture capitalists, the industry people, and the people who were building LNG plants—knew what was happening. If the government could integrate that kind of information into its policy framework sometimes, to facilitate the investment in large infrastructure, that could benefit Canada from a competitive position. We would be there first, so to speak. I think that would be very helpful.
I use the natural gas example as one example to illustrate the fact that we're not always talking about information and communication technologies that are rapidly evolving. Many things are rapidly evolving. My colleague spoke about the oil sands. Things are rapidly evolving there.
That's just an idea that might be helpful.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
Thank you very much, Mr. Marceau.
Mr. Braid, you have seven minutes.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to each of our witnesses for being here this afternoon and contributing to our study.
Madam Carter, you mentioned—and I think we heard the same from many of you—that one of the aspects we're concerned about is a shortage of engineers. I certainly heard you say that. I thought I also heard you say that we may have a problem with new graduates getting jobs. That seems to be contradictory. Could you explain that?
4:10 p.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Engineers Canada
I recognize that it's contradictory. When we did our labour market survey, we were told overwhelmingly by industry that they're looking for people with five to 10 years of experience, and most grads will come out of university with two years of experience or less. Industry is looking for people who already have experience, mostly because they're trying to fill those gaps. They're looking for people who are going to be able to step very quickly into those leadership positions that Mr. Gamble was talking about earlier.
As a result, we did get that new graduates aren't really the favourite thing for industry. It would be very helpful if there were incentives for industry to hire new grads so that they would be able to train them to have their five to 10 years of experience.
I was very lucky when I graduated just before that group of people who didn't get hired. I was hired in 1989, and I was pushed through very quickly, because they didn't hire people after me. I was it, the junior engineer who needed to learn fast to take a leadership role. I was at the leading edge of that big gap, and industry now is feeling that and wants to find people who have that level of expertise.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON
Thank you.
Another theme or thread that we certainly heard today from each of you was the importance of increasing the number of women engineers and aboriginal engineers.
Starting with you, Madam Carter, I'd like to hear from each of you on how we can help to achieve that. I'd like to hear any recommendations you may have on how we move the yardsticks up in both those areas, and any examples of best practices today that are helping to achieve those two policy objectives.
4:10 p.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Engineers Canada
I will leave it to Dr. Laguë to give examples of what universities are doing.
Engineers Canada has done an enormous amount of research on this issue. We have an initiative under way to see if 30% of engineering students can be female by 2030, which, believe it or not, is quite a lofty goal.
We need to encourage girls—or all kids, really—to understand that science is fun and engineering is fun, and that engineering is of value to society and that we really do help individuals on a one-on-one basis every day in all aspects of life. We think that trying to take that tactic to encourage girls to go into engineering would be very helpful.
4:10 p.m.
Dean and Professor, Faculty of Engineering, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I think one element that differentiates Canada—and other western countries, for that matter—from many emerging countries is the fact that this whole area of what we call the STEM—science, technology, engineering, and mathematics—is not as valued among young people and among parents as it is in other parts of the world. It is especially sometimes devalued with regard to opportunities for women.
In universities—I can speak of my own—we have the same thing happening in all engineering schools. We have developed a number of outreach programs over the years to reach out to school-age children and to involve their parents, their teachers, and their guidance counsellors in trying to generate or to increase that interest in science, technology, engineering, and math.
If you want to enter the engineering profession, the first step is to get into an engineering school, and obviously you need to have a strong background in science and math. That background is not something you will acquire only in grade 11 and grade 12. The path to that takes a number of years. We need to reach out to those kids much before the time they get into high school.
The network of NSERC chairs for women in engineering and science has been very helpful in that regard in allowing us to have champions across the country who are developing and delivering those programs. We are also doing a lot of things individually at each of our school levels to basically tailor what we are doing in terms of outreach through the specific situations in which we operate.
It's a major challenge. It was mentioned that the proportion of female students in the engineering program has basically not changed significantly over the last few years, despite the fact that in absolute numbers it has increased because we have more students in our schools than we did 10 or 15 years ago.
The fact is that we have not been successful so far in increasing or rebalancing our student body compared with what has happened in other professions. The medical profession has achieved that balance. Law has done the same thing. In engineering, we're still facing major challenges in generating that interest and excitement among young women for those career opportunities.
4:15 p.m.
Vice-President, Research Partnerships Programs Directorate, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada
To carry on in that vein, we have only five of these chairs in women in science and engineering. It's a huge load for these women to try to mentor so many students. We do also try to work through the schools. We have a PromoScience program, and although it's called PromoScience, it's PromoScience and Engineering, really. We do things like engineering in schools, and we support those kinds of initiatives. Of course there's always a need for more of that.
The other thing we're trying to do is to work with students at the undergraduate level to give them experience in industry and give them hands-on experience doing some practical projects, which really stimulates their interest in moving on to graduate studies. That's again hugely important, because a large fraction of our growth in the graduate schools has been from international and not national students.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
Thank you, Madam Walden.
Now we go to Mr. Regan for seven minutes.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you to the witnesses for coming today.
Professor Laguë, would you say we are currently facing a crisis? If not now, when?
4:15 p.m.
Dean and Professor, Faculty of Engineering, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I don't think we're in a crisis. You need only look at the figures showing that program enrolment is up. Over the past few years, our field has seen slightly higher enrolment than the university system across the board. It's a sign we've been able to get more young people interested in engineering careers.
We were just talking about graduate studies. In that area, we do indeed have a challenge on our hands: attracting more Canadian students to our master's and Ph.D. programs in engineering. Today, we have more than 20,000 students registered in master's and Ph.D. programs in engineering. The problem, however, is the very high proportion of foreign students, 35% to 40% on average. They come from around the world, and many of them go back home after finishing their studies. So we are not necessarily benefiting. There is some benefit in that a percentage of those students end up staying in Canada. Many of them, however, go back to their home countries. Attracting more Canadians to our graduate programs is a challenge.
The challenge we have stems from the fact that a Canadian student has to decide between graduate studies and the job market. Going to school means making financial sacrifices. I don't think every student with the potential to pursue graduate studies will choose to take those financial risks.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
If we don't take graduate studies into account, how many years do you think it will take before the difficult climate and current pressures are no longer an issue? I am referring to the gap. How many years before the situation evens out, more or less?
In addition, do you know what proportion of those 40% from abroad stay here after five years?
4:20 p.m.
Dean and Professor, Faculty of Engineering, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I couldn't give you the exact percentage. We do know that a good many of them stay in Canada, but I wouldn't venture a figure on that today.
When will we get there? Our engineering schools have the capacity to grow. Take my own faculty, for example. In one year, we went from 3,100 to 3,700 students. It's clear in our case that we're nearing our limit and won't be able to sustain more growth, without an injection of human capital, money and physical resources.
If we look at what's happening in Canada right now, we see that some universities are in the process of expanding their engineering schools. The most recent example of that is York University, in Toronto. They have a very ambitious expansion plan for their engineering school, and obviously that will increase capacity. It will go from 70,000 undergraduates to 75,000 or 80,000.
However, it is important to make sure that people are being trained in high-demand sectors. And that means looking closely at the labour market to identify and target those sectors where trained graduates could have rewarding careers.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Ms. Carter, you mentioned the different issues in attracting women versus attracting aboriginals. Are you the person to ask to tell me more about those differences, or should someone else answer that question?
February 7th, 2013 / 4:20 p.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Engineers Canada
I can give you the answer with respect to the information that we've got.
The issue with our indigenous population, largely the first nations population—and we've been working with the first nations on how we can address this—is that they don't tend to finish high school with an adequate knowledge of math and sciences.
I can give you an example. The University of Manitoba has a program that bridges the gap so that they end up in the mainstream of the university degree program, but they start out with a program that brings them up to the same level of knowledge as the normal first-year entrants.
It's more expensive; they have a funding program, and a lot of the big issues with the indigenous population are related to funding. They can't afford it.
Some of it is cultural. We had a couple of representatives tell us that one of the issues with moving off the reserve or out of their community to go to university, get an engineering degree, and then go back into their community is trying to fit back in.
The indigenous population faces a different set of difficulties from the women. With women, it's not so much that as trying to develop interest. We still do have a profession that seems to be painted as the typical Dilbert type. I find it really quite funny myself, but we're not all like that. It's a matter of trying to expose young women to the fact that engineering is something that's valuable to society, and interesting. I happen to like digging in dirt and building things with concrete, but not all women do.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
Thank you very much, Madam Carter and Mr. Regan.
That concludes our seven-minute round. Now we'll go to five-minute question sessions.
We will go to Madam Gallant for five minutes.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Laguë, I believe it was you who mentioned that some incentives would be needed in order for companies to take on new graduates from engineering. Was that the case, or was it Mr. Gamble?
I recall, Mr. Chairman, last December, that you announced that the Government of Canada had invested $1,133,000 toward internships, which should have seen up to 86 graduates of science and engineering obtain internships at McMaster. At Carleton, the STEM program—that's science, technology, engineering, and math—was also receiving $1,430,000. They were going to coordinate with the University of Windsor, which does the graduate enterprise internship program.
Are those the sorts of incentives you were referring to?
4:25 p.m.
President, Association of Consulting Engineering Companies - Canada
I don't believe it was I who referred to the incentives. I think that while those could be helpful, the bottom line, at least for our piece of the puzzle, is what Ms. Carter described. Our more pressing, critical need is for middle to senior management, the people who are, frankly, billable-ready.
What would actually serve us is more predictability with the job market. That would probably be more important than incentives. Incentive programs come in many different shapes and forms and so forth, and they help, but it's not a solution.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Speaking of having more students enter engineering, the co-op engineering programs are very attractive features to entrants to engineering programs. Are any measures being taken to expand the number of co-op programs and the number of positions available therein?
4:25 p.m.
Dean and Professor, Faculty of Engineering, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I think if you look at the situation right now in Canada, probably about two-thirds of engineering schools have some form of either a co-op or one-time internship programs that in some cases are mandatory and in other cases are optional. I would say that in most schools, as in our school, co-op is an option. About one-third of our undergraduate students go through the co-op route in order to obtain their degree. We've been growing that program over the years, and we'll continue to grow that program.
It's always a matter of making sure you're balancing the number of students you have in the co-op stream with the capacity of the market to absorb those co-op students. The number of work placements available is not infinite, so you have to make sure. Often it's not necessarily distributed in the same way our student population is, so we have to make sure we adjust the number of co-op or internship positions that are available in each discipline to the reality of the job market.