Industry Committee on Nov. 4th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Madam Sgro and Mr. Knubley.

We will now move to Mr. Holder, for five minutes.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you again to our guests.

Minister, might I ask a favour? I'd get rid of the fake Crosby, but if you get an original, I'd appreciate it if you would pass it on to me. You can give the electrical circuit gadget to the member for Brant, because he likes those kinds of things.

We've focused totally on goods that come from outside of Canada. But when we look at this, the short title of the bill is the Combating Counterfeit Products Act.

Could you imagine the circumstance where we would have the potential for counterfeiting in Canada, and if so, how would this bill respond?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

We do, and there are counterfeit goods that are created in Canada that are exported elsewhere in the world. This combats that. Again, this is about the importing and exporting of counterfeit goods. It's legislation that covers both the push and pull of bogus products.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I know we have representatives from the CBSA, but what about counterfeiting in Canada for goods that are distributed in Canada? Would the bill respond equally, Minister, or could you imagine a circumstance where that might happen?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Sure, and I'm sure there are examples.

[Martin Bolduc]

I'm sorry, can you repeat that?

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Where there might be a counterfeit good manufactured in Canada and distributed in Canada, would this bill assist in terms of response? Would the same regulations intended to protect rights holders and all of the other circumstances associated with this bill apply?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

That would not be associated with this bill. That would be associated with the Copyright Act, and we do have that. People take movies, burn them onto discs or put them onto thumb drives and circulate them around dorms and those types of things. That does happen within Canada and there are penalties in the Copyright Act as a result of our Copyright Modernization Act. Again, this is about importing and exporting. The domestic penalties and domestic regimes are there now.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

What about the issue of counterfeit cigarettes that come in from overseas? They might come in from the United States across our borders through various means. Would this legislation apply there?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

It would, but I think you're opening a big can of worms when it comes to the tobacco issue.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I can imagine I am.

[Martin Bolduc]

The CBSA already focuses with colleagues from the RCMP on counterfeit cigarettes. We have seizures happening. I'm not sure this bill would particularly focus on cigarettes, but I do believe we have the tools we need to be able to take action.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Since we have the RCMP here as well, I would make the comment that that's obviously a very serious issue. We know it is. Again, I'd be curious, Mr. Slinn, if you might comment. If this bill isn't the issue, and I don't want to get away from the point of this bill, does it assist in tackling the very serious issue of illegal tobacco? When I say illegal, I'm talking about counterfeit specifically.

[Supt Eric Slinn]

Absolutely. As I pointed out earlier, we focus on organized crime, the diversity of organized crime—

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

That becomes the issue.

[Supt Eric Slinn]

—and it becomes the issue. This bill gives us that added tool, the flexibility to take shots at those organized crime groups that may be involved in cigarettes, drugs, contraband jerseys, whatever.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I appreciate you saying that, and I think we know it's an extremely significant issue in this country.

Minister, if I may, my Cape Breton mom used to say that nothing is either good or bad except by comparison. Relative to the old law and what this is intended to do, for the purpose of the folks who are around this table and those who are listening to this session, what would you say are the most critical parts of this bill, the most salient pieces, where someone could say, “Yes, that matters and I'm glad the government is doing that because this impacts us”?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

When a business creates a product they are planning to sell, either internationally or at home, and somebody is able to take that product, match its quality, have it manufactured in a cheaper jurisdiction somewhere else in the world and bring it into the country and sell it at flea markets, or sell it at dollar stores and undermine that business, when that product comes in it can undermine and, indeed, collapse an entire idea that somebody has come up with. Worse, somebody can bring in a product that can be manufactured more cheaply outside the country, bring it in and there's lead in the toy, or mercury in it, or there's an electrical good that actually doesn't have a proper fuse in it, or is not made of the proper plastic and can overheat and cause a fire, and that's being sold....

To the average citizen watching, what we're trying to do is to stop goods from coming into the country that would undermine and destroy small business, that would take away great ideas that are being thought of by Canadians that are being implemented in the marketplace. We're also trying to stop goods from coming into the country that would endanger our health and safety.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Mr. Holder.

Now to Mr. Thibeault for five minutes.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a couple of quick questions, first for some clarification.

If there's a larger product made—I'll use Sudbury as an example, where there are many mining supply and services companies. Suppose they make a great product but within the product there are counterfeit items, what happens then? Is there a way to clarify that for us?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Do you mean, if you had a widget and within the widget there were nine pieces and three of the nine pieces were counterfeit?

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Yes.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

What would you do?

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I'd ask the enforcement guy.