Evidence of meeting #105 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meeting.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:30 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
During your tenure there, did anybody bring up to you how deficient the board meeting minutes were?
It's nothing short of shocking to me that you'd have people sitting on so many different boards and so many different places, and that would be the expectation.
Do you sit on any other boards that have minutes that are less than what this board had? Is that your experience?
11:30 a.m.
O.C., As an Individual
I do sit on a number of boards. The board minutes that are represented by SDTC are in the norm and recognize the activity of the board of directors.
11:30 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
To me, this is a larger question about accountability in these organizations that are non-government...directly involved, semi-funded or fully government-funded. The lack of having minutes would never stand in the not-for-profit sector. I can tell you that from all the boards I've sat on.
Why do you think you're here, then? Why has the minister frozen the situation right now? What's your perspective of that?
You must have some reflection as to why this has caught the attention of the minister and Parliament.
11:35 a.m.
O.C., As an Individual
A fact-finding exercise was executed by the minister because of accusations made by former employees. This is where we are and why we're here, I suppose.
I personally don't understand.... Both the Osler study and the Raymond Chabot study said there was no wrongdoing and no misconduct. There were areas that we could improve, absolutely.
By the way, one thing I wanted to do before I left was provide that to the ministry with the management team. That has been delivered. There are areas where we can tighten up and define conflict in a better way. We had an ex-ethics adviser helping us there. Yes, there is room for improvement, and we have delivered that in that MRAP report.
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
I have one last question. I'm almost out of time.
When I asked if the board members had social or other types of board relationships outside the board room, a previous witness indicated at first that there weren't, but later on indicated that there were social events and activities amongst board members.
Can you confirm or deny that board members were acting outside the board room in any type of social or other environment where they sat on other boards?
11:35 a.m.
O.C., As an Individual
I did not see that.
We are a very professional group of people. We would physically come together only twice a year. We were doing video even before COVID. We would get together as well at a big conference that would happen every year in Ottawa.
I didn't see that.
Look, I'm a business person, and I've been in business for 44 years, so I know a lot of people. Do I socialize with them and talk about projects? No.
I think it was a very professionally run organization with a very professional board.
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Are you aware of other board members picking up the phone and calling other board members?
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you, Mr. Masse. We will come back to you shortly, once Mr. Lemire has had the floor, as we resume the usual order of questions.
Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
11:35 a.m.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Verschuren, it's quite clear that there was a problem in the drafting of the minutes. Another aspect I want to talk to you about is human resources and coaching.
As chair of the board of directors, you were responsible for the hiring of the branch, the evaluation and for the follow-ups to be done.
What can you tell us about the work environment at SDTC? Has any action been taken to assess the work of the branch in terms of human resources? What steps have you taken to better monitor, structure or protect the interests of SDTC workers?
11:35 a.m.
O.C., As an Individual
I wasn't responsible for the day-to-day operations of SDTC. The management team was absolutely doing that. I had a good professional relationship with that management team.
I did not see the concerns that I heard about from the former employees. We did things as a board. It was the responsibility of the HR committee to undertake performance reviews. We reviewed succession plans and did all of the things that were appropriate for a board.
What happened in February, when we heard from these whistle-blowers.... We obviously took it very seriously. That's when we created that three-person committee. I was not involved in that, and neither was the CEO. That committee worked for three or four months to address those accusations and found that there was no real wrongdoing here. The MRAP discussion and study happened as well.
Again, I want to repeat that there were no wrongdoings and no misconduct. Are there areas that we can improve and that are improving? Absolutely. Boards always need to be refreshed. Boards always need to look at and improve on how they operate and their governance. I see this as a normal course of business.
I'm no longer chair, as you all know.
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
If I may, I will address one last point.
Is there gender parity on the board of directors?
Personally, I didn't take part in the invitation process for the people who testified before the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics and the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology.
Do you find it strange that virtually only women and Quebecers were labelled as troublemakers at Sustainable Development Technology Canada?
11:40 a.m.
O.C., As an Individual
The board is quite balanced. We're going toward BIPOC...fifty-fifty, or 30%. The leadership team is also very balanced.
I can't comment on why the women are targeted here. I don't understand it. It's really hard for me to comment on.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you, Mr. Lemire.
Mr. Masse, you now have the floor for two and a half minutes.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'll just follow up with regard to the board process. In your time frame, quite literally.... Say, for example, one of your submissions was in at the board. You already knew it was in, so you didn't need the paperwork on it at all.
You would then leave the room; the board would vote, and then you would just come back in. That is the process that would be followed.
11:40 a.m.
O.C., As an Individual
I want to be clear, honourable member, that there was not one project that I have invested in that came to the table in my four and a half years as chair, except for the project that happened in 2017. That was the compressed air project. I want to make that very clear.
I declared perceived relationships, always, because I was the chair and I recognized that I had a greater responsibility.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
That's actually normal procedure for all of the boards I've served on. If you have family members, friends or whatever, you do that. Perception is equal to actual direct conflict.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
I'm just surprised that only the chair would be following that. Are you suggesting that other board members weren't following that?
11:40 a.m.
O.C., As an Individual
No. They do.
I was sometimes criticized for...not criticized. There were comments, and people saying, “Annette, you don't have to declare that,” but I did anyway. These were people I know who were related to a project, etc.
That was done before. Letters would go out to the board. Projects would be described. Partnerships would be detailed and the board members would then have to declare whether there was a conflict. Those board members would never get that information. They wouldn't see the analysis done by SDTC. They would recuse themselves when a decision was being made at the board.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
They'd all know it was happening, though, and you're in the same room. They'd just be admitted, and then they'd have to....
Just try to walk me through this. They wouldn't know what you were saying, but they would know from the beginning, because they'd have to recuse themselves, so they'd know it was up for debate at that meeting, and they would all go to that meeting. Then, when it came up, somebody would just leave and then come back.