Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 25th, 2012

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Should the international community bring up the responsibility to protect doctrine?

[Dr. Robert R. King]

Responsibility to protect is something that in international law we've tried to use, but it has to be used delicately when other sovereign states have interests at stake.

The responsibility to protect in North Korea is important, but how far we go and what we can do is significant as well. North Korea and South Korea have come to blows on occasion, and we need to deal with human rights in a way that doesn't create provocations on either side that will cause difficulties. I think it's an issue we have to work with, and we have to work carefully with other countries and through the United Nations.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Okay, thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mrs. Grewal is next.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. King, thank you very much for travelling to Ottawa and meeting with our committee to discuss our shared deep concerns about the human rights situation in North Korea. It is also really very troubling. In North Korea we have an authoritarian state with a government that denies freedom of speech, press, assembly, association, religion, movement, and whatnot. We have reports of extrajudicial killings, disappearances, arbitrary detention, and torture.

You have really travelled the globe extensively, meeting with government officials and legislators around the globe. Is there any consensus on how we can really move forward and successfully tackle human rights situations and abuses in DPRK?

[Dr. Robert R. King]

Human rights are something that one continues to work on without making dramatic breakthroughs in most cases. I remember very well trying to deal with human rights issues involving the former Soviet Union in the 1960s and 1970s.

The progress we made in terms of refuseniks being allowed to leave the Soviet Union was difficult. I can remember the American Congress meeting with the wives of some of these refuseniks who were imprisoned in the Soviet Union.

The main thing we need to do is make sure that we do not abandon our commitment to human rights. We need to continue to press on these issues. We need to continue to keep them in the forefront, and eventually we'll begin to make progress. I see the way things have happened in Russia. We're still not at the point we'd like to be in terms of human rights there, but we've made great progress from where we were earlier.

The same thing is true in China. The same thing is true in many other places. We still have a much greater distance to go in the case of North Korea, but I think we need to continue to press, to continue to keep this in the forefront.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Refugees and press reports indicate that there is a vast network of forced labour camps in North Korea. I understand you had the opportunity to visit there last year, to travel to Pyongyang to meet with North Korean officials. Did you have an opportunity during this visit to bring up the issue of these camps?

[Dr. Robert R. King]

The primary purpose for my going to North Korea was to talk about the possibility of the United States providing humanitarian assistance. As I mentioned, North Korea is a country that isn't able to grow enough food to feed its population. The United States has a policy of basing humanitarian assistance on need and not on politics. One of my purposes in going to North Korea was to be able to conduct an assessment of the need in North Korea.

A second concern and consideration for the United States is that when we provide humanitarian assistance, we want to be assured that the aid we provide will get to those who are most in need. My discussions with the North Koreans were focused on those issues. We were able to reach some agreements that we thought were helpful. We were able to conduct an assessment that we thought was productive.

We ran into difficulties when the North Koreans abrogated agreements that they had reached with us in other areas and we didn't have credible assurance that the aid would be delivered to where it was needed. We ultimately ended up suspending the aid.

However, we were able to have good discussions with the North Koreans on providing humanitarian assistance. We were able to begin discussions on human rights issues that I thought were useful and productive. The relationship has suffered a little bit since then, and we haven't been able to continue in some of those areas, but I'm hopeful that we'll be able to do that sometime soon.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That's the last question, Ms. Grewal. You're out of time.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

In your opinion—

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Sorry, that has to be the last question. You're out of time.

Mr. Jacob, go ahead.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ambassador, thank you for joining us this afternoon.

You have unfortunately painted—and rightly so—a fairly gloomy picture of human rights in North Korea. In your opinion, what would currently be the most important and urgent issues regarding human rights?

[Dr. Robert R. King]

It is hard to identify a particular human right that's more important than others. It seems to me that, when we have to prioritize, freedom of information is one of the most important, because it's only when people have information that they're able to understand what the issues are in other parts of the world. They're able to understand how others have resolved these issues. So I would probably suggest that we need to put a focus on freedom of information and increasing information flow, while continuing to work on other issues: rule of law, juridical procedures, these kinds of things.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

You have been to North Korea. You said that professors came to British Columbia through an exchange program.

Is that a bilateral exchange program? Do any observers go to North Korea to truly get an idea of what is happening in the country?

[Dr. Robert R. King]

North Korea is a difficult country to visit, but there are tours that are offered. Some people go and will actually have an opportunity to visit North Korea as a tourist.

There are other groups that visit, a number of NGOs. There are American NGOs and Canadian NGOs that provide humanitarian assistance and that visit North Korea. They are allowed to visit hospitals and medical facilities, where they provide assistance and advice.

There is a very interesting university called the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology, PUST. It is an organization funded largely by South Korean and Korean-American and other groups that provides instruction in science and technology and business in English. The faculty is largely composed of people who volunteer. The groups involved in this are primarily Christian groups. There are people who go and instruct in mathematics and in science and in business topics. They are one of the universities in North Korea that functions in North Korea. The student body is selected by the North Korean government, but all of the instruction is in English and the teachers there are teaching them topics that you'd teach in a Canadian or American university.

So there is some effort in terms of people going into North Korea, and I think these are all positive. It's seen by North Koreans as being positive because they need information in these areas.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Yes, you have one minute.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

How could Canadian human rights initiatives in North Korea be useful in the framework of a coordinated international strategy?

Do you think Canada could take any specific measures in that area?

[Dr. Robert R. King]

I think Canada can play an important role in this regard. As I mentioned, I think Canada and the United States and other democratic countries share a common set of values, and I think this common sense of priority for human rights and democracy and so forth is important. I think it helps if we coordinate and cooperate and work together.

One of the things I have tried to do in my position is meet periodically with representatives of the other governments that share these same values, talk about what we are doing, and learn what other countries are doing. I think it's useful for us to do this.

We had meetings in Brussels primarily focused on the European Union, but there were Canadian representatives who participated in that session. I think it's helpful, because many countries have special skills or NGOs who have special experiences, and I think it helps.

The Mennonite Central Committee, for example, is an NGO that functions both in the United States and in Canada. It is the Canadian arm of the Mennonite Central Committee that has taken the lead in dealing with North Korea. It's easier for the Canadians to deal with North Korea than for the Americans, for obvious reasons. In cases like this there are many areas where we can work together and where cooperation enhances what we can do individually.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Jacob.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

With the indulgence of the committee, as the clock is not yet at 2:00, I would like to allow Mr. Devolin one question. Would that be acceptable?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Barry Devolin, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and committee members. Thanks for being here, Ambassador.

For those of us who would like to see an improvement in the quality of life and the human rights of the people of North Korea in the near future—not after regime change, but in the near future—do you think we'd be better off to spend our time and effort trying to influence the Chinese, who obviously directly deal with North Korean refugees who cross into China, and try to persuade the Chinese to have an influence on the North Koreans? I'm presuming that the Chinese might be the only people the North Koreans listen to.

Would we be better off spending our time trying to persuade the Chinese to get things done, rather than our trying to persuade the North Korean regime directly?

[Dr. Robert R. King]

I would argue, as an American president said, “You have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.” I would suggest that we could do both. We need to press the Chinese. We need to urge the Chinese to allow refugees who want to leave North Korea to leave. We need to urge the Chinese to press the North Koreans to make progress on human rights issues. At the same time, we need to continue to work with the North Koreans as well. I'd say we need to do both and we ought to try to do both.

We have pressed the Chinese on many of these issues. We continue to urge Chinese cooperation on these human rights issues. We continue to press the North Koreans on them as well. The Canadian influence would be useful to have on both fronts.