Evidence of meeting #53 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was korean.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Excellency Dr. Robert R. King  Ambassador, Special Envoy for North Korean Human Rights Issues, United States Department of State

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

We will begin the meeting.

We are the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Today is October 25, 2012, and this is our 53rd meeting .

Our meeting is televised today. Remember, your mother will probably be watching.

Because my mother is watching, I want to say happy birthday to my sister. I won't tell you how old she's turning today because she's of the age that you wear sackcloth and ashes on your birthday, but nevertheless, Jackie, happy birthday.

We have with us today Robert King, the United States ambassador and special envoy for North Korean human rights. He testifies to us pursuant to our ongoing study of the human rights situation in North Korea, which has occupied this committee on and off for almost two years.

Ambassador King will give a presentation. The length of his presentation and how much time we have left will determine how long each set of questions is today.

Once we've dealt with this, I have an item of business dealing with the potential witness from the Congress of the Philippines, which we'll deal with at the end, but I'll try to speak to each of you separately to whisper in your ear about it to get a sense from the committee prior to that so we can deal with it as quickly as possible.

All that being said, Ambassador King, we're glad to have you here. Please feel free to begin.

October 25th, 2012 / 1:10 p.m.

His Excellency Dr. Robert R. King Ambassador, Special Envoy for North Korean Human Rights Issues, United States Department of State

Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity to be here.

I spent many years with the United States Congress, and I appreciate the legislative branch.

Let me make a few comments about North Korea and the North Korean human rights situation. I'll try to save most of the time for questions, because I'm sure you have a number of issues you would like to raise.

The human rights situation in North Korea is deplorable. The State Department produces a report annually examining the human rights situation of countries around the world. The report for 2011, the most recent report, talks about extrajudicial killings, disappearances, arbitrary detention, arrests of political prisoners, and torture.

The judiciary is not independent. It does not provide fair trials or due process. The North Korean government continues to control almost all aspects of citizens' lives. It denies freedom of speech, press, religion, assembly, and association. Reports continue that the government severely restricts freedom of movement and subjects its citizens to forced labour. We've also had reports that the government is responsible for disappearances, and there's been very little progress on the investigation into cases of suspected abductions of Japanese nationals by the North Korean government.

I want to mention two specific issues regarding North Korea and human rights that are noteworthy. The first is with regard to political prisons in North Korea. There are a number of books and reports and recent conferences dealing with the issue of North Korean political prisons. These reports describe very harsh, life-threatening conditions in prison camps and the detention system in North Korea. This year prominent American journalist Blaine Harden published Escape from Camp 14: One Man's Remarkable Odyssey from North Korea to Freedom in the West. This is based on interviews with Shin Dong-hyuk. He is the only prison camp inmate who is known to have escaped from this most secure of North Korean prison camps.

Shin Dong-hyuk was born in a prison camp. His father was in a prison camp because his father's brother had gone to South Korea. His mother was in the prison camp not because of anything she had done but because, again, one of her family members had been guilty of committing some crime. The parents of Shin Dong-hyuk were allowed to marry in the camp, and Shin Dong-hyuk was the result of that marriage.

The book describes in great detail the brutal conditions in those prison camps. Shin Dong-hyuk was a 14-year old boy. He was in a prison camp not because of anything he had done but because his parents were there. He was told that there was no hope that he would ever be released from the prison camp. As a young teenager, he was asked to carry a very heavy piece of equipment up a flight of stairs. It was too heavy for him, and he dropped it. He damaged the equipment. His immediate punishment was that his middle finger was severed at the second knuckle.

This young man also was taught that the worst thing a prison camp inmate can do is leave the camp, try to escape, and that every person in the camp has a responsibility to report it to the guards if they find somebody who is going to escape.

Shin Dong-hyuk went to see his mother. They didn't live together. He was still a teenager. He went to visit his mother and found out that his mother and brother were intending to escape from the camp. He went back and concluded that he had to report it, because this is what he was told he had to do. He reported it. He was not trusted. They took him and tortured him. Hooks were put through him. He was held over hot charcoal. After a week or so of punishment, they came to the conclusion that he was probably telling the truth. Then he was taken out to a large field where all the inmates in the camp were gathered together, and there, in front of the entire camp population, his brother was executed by a firing squad and his mother was hanged.

This is a very dramatic account of what conditions are like in North Korean prison camps.

I think the publication of this book and the publication of other reports have provided a great deal of information about these prison camps. The Committee for Human Rights in North Korea has published a book, The Hidden Gulag, that has satellite photographs of various locations identified as North Korean prison camps, so a great deal of information has become available recently.

The second significant issue I'd like to talk about relates to the flow of information into and out of North Korea. In this area there's been some progress.

North Korea remains one of the most isolated places on earth. North Korea is a place where it is illegal to own a radio that can be tuned. You are not allowed to have a tunable radio. You cannot buy a tunable radio in North Korea; it is preset to the government channel. The same thing is true with television sets. The government does not want information from the outside to come in. This is a country where the Internet is virtually non-existent. A few government agencies are allowed to have access to the Internet, but, internally in the country, no one has access to the Internet. Despite this, from interviews with people who have left North Korea, somewhere between 20% and 30% of the North Korean population indicate that they have listened to foreign radio broadcasts, so there's a certain amount of information going into North Korea, and it appears to be increasing.

The other interesting thing is that the most valued DVDs, which provide entertainment more than they provide information, are South Korean soap operas. South Korea is the wave of culture in Asia right now, and South Korean DVDs are very highly prized in North Korea. Estimates from refugees who have left North Korea indicate that some half the population has seen these DVDs of South Korean soap operas. These DVDs provide information about what is going on outside, beyond the boundaries of North Korea.

North Korea is also a place where, until recently, it has not been possible to have a cellphone. Cellphones have come in over the last few years, and it is now possible for people in North Korea to have cellphones. There are about a million cellphones for 24 million people.

It is not an unrestricted cellphone. In North Korea you are allowed to have a cellphone, but you can only call other North Koreans. You cannot make foreign calls, and you cannot call foreigners who live in North Korea. It is possible for foreigners to have a cellphone, but foreigners are given a cellphone that will only work to call other foreigners. The British ambassador has a cellphone and the British ambassador's North Korean driver has a cellphone, but the two of them can't call each other, which gives you some indication of the problem.

The difference between North Korea and South Korea is indicative of the difference between North Korea and the rest of the world. In North Korea, as I say, there are about a million cellphones for 24 million people, or 0.04 cellphones per person. In South Korea, on the other hand, there are 1.3 cellphones per person, which gives you some indication of the difference in terms of access to information. It's significant, however, because information does circulate in North Korea, and with cellphones it's circulating even faster.

There are some markets that are allowed to function and to operate. Prices in the market are more readily available. You know what the price is on products from one market to another. Information is beginning to circulate in North Korea, and that's probably a very encouraging kind of step.

I want to make a couple of comments about some of the things we appreciate that the Canadian government has done. We have tried to work carefully and closely with the Canadian government and with other governments that are involved in dealing with North Korea. We appreciate the cooperation and the opportunity of consulting on what we and other countries are trying to do in dealing with North Korea.

When I was in Seoul, I met with the Korean ambassador in Seoul, who also has been accredited in the past to North Korea. It has been useful to exchange information. I met your ambassador when I was in Seoul just a couple of weeks ago.

The Canadian government and Canadian NGOs have played an important role in terms of engaging with North Korea. We think that has been helpful and productive.

The University of British Columbia has a program right now through which a handful of North Korean professors will spend six months in Vancouver and will be able to improve their understanding of economics and Western market economy. These are useful programs. We've had a few North Koreans come to the United States, but none of them for that length of time, so I commend the Canadians, particularly the NGOs and the University of British Columbia, for playing an important role in terms of engagement with the North Koreans.

We've appreciated being able to talk with your diplomats, being able to discuss and share information that we have on North Korea, and it has been useful and productive.

We've noted that Canada has imposed very tough sanctions on the DPRK, and that's been significant. The United States has worked with Canada and with other countries in the United Nations in imposing sanctions, and we appreciate the cooperation we've had in doing that.

The Canadian government has also made a number of contributions through the World Food Programme to providing humanitarian assistance to North Korea, and we appreciate that. We've recognized the value of working through the UN agencies, particularly through the World Food Programme, and when we've provided aid in the past, we've worked with the World Food Programme.

The Canadian government has also been very supportive in the United Nations of resolutions critical of North Korea's human rights record. Particularly in the third committee of the General Assembly, where resolutions have been passed for the last eight years, the Canadian government has been supportive and positive in these resolutions critical of North Korea.

We've seen a number of statements from the Canadian government as positive and helpful in terms of criticizing the North Koreans for their human rights records. Of recent statements on Dr. Oh Kil-nam, a South Korean whose wife and children were left in North Korean prisons when he defected and who has been trying for some time to get his family back, the statement that the Canadian government issued on his behalf was a very useful one and a very helpful one. We appreciate the opportunity to work with Canada on issues relating to North Korea and to North Korean human rights issues.

I think the most important consideration here is that the United States and Canada share a very strong commitment and tradition of respect for human rights and of the value and importance of pursuing these rights. We look forward to working together with the Canadian government and the Canadian Parliament in terms of working on these issues.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to talk with you today about these issues.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador.

It appears that we'll have time for the rounds to be five minutes long, including answers.

We will begin with Mr. Sweet.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador, for your testimony and for investing your time here. We're grateful for your commendation, too, to the Government of Canada for its participation with the United States in trying to put as much pressure as we can on North Korea so they will capitulate in this terrible, tragic tradition of human rights violations to a degree. When you're talking about putting hooks in people, there's not much more that we've heard more severe here.

We had our own foreign affairs people brief us just recently on the dimension of the sanctions. This is a very broad question. We've seen sanctions make a substantial difference; although nothing has changed in the regime in this case, in a relatively short period of time compared to North Korea, sanctions have really made a severe impact on Iran.

We haven't seen any results, really, in these North Korean sanctions. They have done substantial damage to their economy, but we haven't seen any capitulation so far on their behalf.

Is there a reason these sanctions aren't working?

1:25 p.m.

Dr. Robert R. King

Probably the difference between the North Korean economy and the Iranian economy is North Korea is a much smaller, much less sophisticated economy. The result is that the effects, I think, are less felt because there are not large amounts of foreign purchases of North Korean goods or resources. North Korea has more trade and external economic relations with China than with any other country. The sanctions against North Korea have been in place for a number of years, and the result is that this is not a functioning economy. I think it's much harder.

I think sanctions are important. I think we need to keep them in place. I think the sanctions have prevented further problems that might have developed if we hadn't had them in place. In terms of having the impact such as the sanctions have had in Iran recently, it's quite different.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Yes. We don't see people marching in the street, as we have in Iran. At least there are some hopeful uprisings in the grassroots there.

I take your point with the less than sophisticated economy. It was demonstrated just a few moments ago in the percentage of people who you said had cell phones.

1:25 p.m.

Dr. Robert R. King

The other thing that's interesting is that in Iran people can call out. When our radio broadcasts have gone into Iran, people inside Iran have called out and are rebroadcast. That never happens in North Korea.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Exactly. Yes, people make it out of Iran.

1:25 p.m.

Dr. Robert R. King

Yes.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Since you mentioned China, could you give us an update on what you know with regard to how North Korean refugees are being treated in China right now? What's the situation in that regard?

1:25 p.m.

Dr. Robert R. King

The situation of the refugees is quite difficult. It is very difficult to get out of North Korea. The border with South Korea is heavily guarded and mined. The result is that the only way out is through China.

The Chinese have generally tended to return people who have been captured after they have escaped from North Korea and crossed the border into China. We have urged the Chinese to observe their obligations to allow people to leave. When refugees are returned, they are punished. It's a fairly serious problem. There are frequent reports in the press of refugees being returned.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Finally, Mr. King, Kim Jong-il is gone. Kim Jong-un is now there. Do you have any intelligence that there's any room for hope in this regard?

1:25 p.m.

Dr. Robert R. King

This is a system that is set up to have one man in charge. There's no indication that the change in leadership has changed anything in terms of the nature of the dictatorship there.

Very clearly the new leader is from a different generation. One of the things I found interesting is that we found out he has a wife, who appeared with him in public on a number of occasions. We've never found out information like that about other North Korean leaders. Whether these are significant changes or whether they are simply appearance changes, we're watching carefully and hoping to see.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Marston, please.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome, Ambassador. I'm pleased to have you here.

In March next year the UN special rapporteur, who is doing a special review of the human rights situation in North Korea, is going to be releasing a report. Do you see that having any impact? The impression we get is that not a lot reaches this regime in the sense of influencing it for true change. Do you think there's any hope for this?

1:30 p.m.

Dr. Robert R. King

As with a lot of UN mechanisms, it's cumulative. We need to continue to press the North Koreans to deal with their human rights obligations. We're now on the second of the special rapporteurs on North Korean human rights, and a number of reports have been issued over the years. Those reports provide useful details, information, and documentation on the problems in North Korea.

One thing that I thought was encouraging is that three years ago the North Koreans participated in the universal periodic review in Geneva in the Human Rights Council.

The idea behind the universal periodic review is that every country in the UN will make a presentation on its human rights record and then hear comments from other countries. North Korea, which has one of the worst records, nonetheless felt that it needed to participate in that process. They came, they made a presentation, and they asserted that there were no changes that they needed to make. They said that human rights in North Korea were all good.

However, in fact, changes were made in their legislation. Whether this translates into changes in practices is another matter. There is an issue of legitimacy, and in order to be legitimately accepted, a country recognizes that it needs to do something on its human rights record, so I think it's helpful and useful that we continue to press on these issues. I don't think we're going to see quick, dramatic change, but I'm hopeful that we'll eventually see progress.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

It has been reported to us that you have had some thoughts about some diplomatic and policy options that could be used to pressure certain entities. Would you like to expand on that a bit?

1:30 p.m.

Dr. Robert R. King

We have pressed the North Koreans and made it clear to them that if they want to have a normal diplomatic relationship with the United States, it will require a recognition of human rights. I think we've tried to make that point to the North Koreans on the occasions when we've been able to talk with them about these issues. On a couple of occasions I've had discussions with the North Koreans in which we talked about some of these human rights issues and their importance. We've engaged in dialogue with the Chinese government on human rights. China is certainly not as far along on its human rights record as we'd like to see—

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

We all feel the same.

1:30 p.m.

Dr. Robert R. King

—but they've made some progress, and I'm hopeful that if we continue to press the North Koreans we'll make progress there as well.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

We have to recognize it when any of them move the line at all, because it's such an important issue.

Do I have any time left?

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

You do. You have a minute and a half.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Good.

About four or five years ago I was on the DMZ, and we backed up onto the line for a photo. When we did, two of the North Korean guards came charging up the hill, looking at us through binoculars. The thing that struck me was how fragile-looking these men were. They looked like 14-year-old boys, and I thought that if this is how they feed their army, how in the world is their population even surviving? Has this improved at all?

1:35 p.m.

Dr. Robert R. King

No. North Korea does not have an economy that provides enough food for its population. The North Koreans and the South Koreans have basically the same genetic makeup, yet a North Korean who is 18 years old is five inches shorter than a South Korean of the same age. Keep in mind that those soldiers you saw at the DMZ are the biggest and toughest and strongest that they have.