Evidence of meeting #38 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Now I would like to ask Madame Bérubé to take the floor.
Madame Bérubé, you have five minutes.
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Sylvie Bérubé Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Your testimony about the horrors that this war has put you through and children being torn away from their families is really difficult to listen to. What we have heard today is inhumane, but your strength, bravery and determination are unwavering. You are models for us all. In my eyes, you are all heroes.
Ms. Bodak, I know you had to go through harrowing situations, especially to bring your son back home.
Can you tell us about the challenges that you had to overcome to get your son back?
12:45 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
The difficulties arose at the borders. At the Belarus border, for example, I was interrogated for two hours. Why am I going to Russia? For what reason? They had all sorts of questions for me.
Then there's Domodedovo in Russia. It's an airport in Moscow. It was very difficult there too, but I managed to get through quickly. I spent maybe an hour and a half there—maybe even less—before being admitted into Russia.
I think the most difficult point was Lazurne, the village where I was held for five days. For 24 hours I had a lie detector in a cellar. When we were let go with my son, that was the scariest part, because they did not want to let us go. They didn't want to let us out of Russia. We tried several checkpoints and failed. Then volunteers asked us to lie low for about a day and a half so nobody would know where we were. Then they told us when the car would be coming for us and that the car would take us to the border.
Indeed, a car came. My son an I went in the car to Pskov in the Smolensk region. That was where we were able to cross over to Latvia. They let us through, but before that, from 2:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m, we had to stand there at the border—and we were extremely cold—because they didn't want to let us through. Then, at 6:00 a.m., they let us through, and at 9:00 a.m., when the guards changed, we were able to arrive at the Latvian checkpoint. That's where we had no more problems.
When Latvia let us in, all they asked was, "Where are you from?" and "Where are you going?" I said that I got my son from Russia and I'm taking him home to Ukraine. We had no more problems. They just wished us happy travels. In Poland, I also had no issues, even though my son had no foreign travel documents. He had an internal passport.
The scariest part was Russia, because Russia did not want to let us out. They maybe didn't want to let my son out because he knew too much. I just don't know.
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Sylvie Bérubé Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
You certainly feared for your life as well while you were bringing your son back.
I have a question for your son Vladyslav. He can answer if he wants, if he feels comfortable to do so.
Did you observe any psychological or physical changes in your son once you were reunited and back home? Could some of these changes lead you to believe that he experienced violence at the hands of Russian authorities or other people?
12:45 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
Changes have taken place. When he went there, he was 16 years old. He was like a child, but when I was removing him from there, he was like an adult. He was looking at me. It was my son, but he was a more mature person who had suffered a lot, who had gone through many things. He changed significantly during the eight months that we were apart.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you, Madame Bérubé.
Now I would like to invite Ms. McPherson to take the floor for five minutes.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to everyone for the testimony today. This has been very powerful for us.
I would like to end by asking the children some questions, if I could.
I want to get a better sense of who was with you. I'll ask a few questions, and then whoever would like to respond can do so.
I'd like to know how old the children were. What was the age of the youngest child you saw in these camps or the youngest child who was taken? Did you know any of the children when you were taken? Did you know any other children? We know that Kseniia had her brother. When you were rescued, when you were brought away from there, were those other children forced to remain there?
Finally, can you tell us how you're feeling now? How are you feeling about your situation now and what the future looks like for you now?
12:50 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Save Ukraine
They are discussing it now. Maybe we can clarify this question one by one.
First of all....
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
Who was the youngest child you witnessed?
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
I want to be very clear that if they don't to want to respond or if they don't feel...that's okay as well.
12:50 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Save Ukraine
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
If you don't want to respond, you don't have to.
It's okay. We have someone who will respond.
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
At our camp, we had a team for young children aged six to eight years old. Some of them were crying all the time. They wanted to see their mothers. They were told, “No, we are not able to send you. You have to stay here.” Staff told us we would spend three or five years there.
That's all I know.
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
The youngest children I remember at the camp were girls. One girl was seven years old. Another one was about 10 years old. They were told that their parents were supposed to come. They told their teacher. The teacher told them, “If your parents do not come to collect you, you will be transferred to an orphanage or you'll continue to study.”
12:50 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Save Ukraine
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
Could you please formulate your question again?
What specific question would you like to hear the answer to?
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Really, I just wanted to give the children an opportunity to share more with us. I would like to know a bit more about the camps and a bit more about how they are doing today.
I think their answers have been wonderful so far. That's sufficient.
I know that Mr. Mezhevoj would also like to speak. He had his hand up.
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
Our camp was named Polyany. There was a group of 31. The youngest was my daughter. She was born in 2015. There were also two children, Ishchuk Oleksii and Diana Skidz, who were born in 2014. Those were their years of birth. These were the youngest in that camp on the list I have in my hands.
12:55 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Save Ukraine
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
I would also like to add that we were bringing children back home from different camps. It's most difficult to return young people, because those who are 12 years old may somehow be able to use social media to let their relatives know where they are. However, the younger children don't have this ability. The children will attest to that.
Adults who worked in those facilities never, ever helped children connect with their parents. They never tried to help them find their parents or inquire whether the parents would like to reunite with their children. We didn't find evidence of that in a single camp. They were doing everything possible to make sure that these people never went back to Ukraine.
12:55 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
I would like to add that at the camp, I didn't feel very well. They were very hard circumstances. There was psychological pressure. Every time I recall those days, I don't feel well. I would never wish for anyone to be in my place at that camp.
12:55 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
I would also like to add to what Mykola said. In the case of my children, they were trying to convince them that their father would not be able to collect them. They told them that your father will not be able to reach you in such a short time. You have to make a decision. You should accept the offer of being placed with a foster family or going to a specialized educational facility.
The list they had was 31 people. They made sure that they would not cross paths with other children. They were isolated. They were there on a special program, isolated so they would not intersect with other children who were at the same camp, because there were other children there as well. They prevented them from communicating, and they were only able to see and maybe to talk to each other through an open window. That's what happened with my oldest son as well.
12:55 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
I know of one other situation at the camp. Teachers and the director brought a girl who had attempted suicide. She had cut her wrists and she was transferred to a hospital. She spent two weeks at the hospital.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you.
That puts an end to our committee. The time is almost over.
On behalf of all members of the committee and the staff, I would like to thank all our witnesses for their presence. Your presence was so important to this committee. Your testimony really touched our hearts deeply. If you feel that you have some other information to share with the committee, you could send it in writing.
Thank you. Have a great day.
Now I would like to have a few minutes to discuss our travel project.
I believe you have received a draft for two proposals, one to travel to New York and one to travel to Toronto. Is it the will of the subcommittee to adopt both projects?
Go ahead, Ms. McPherson, please.
12:55 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I looked at both of the proposals. I think the one for going to New York is very interesting. I would be very supportive of that proposal.
Going to—
1 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. Sorry, but I think we're supposed to be in camera to talk about travel. Is that right?
1 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Yes. The problem, as the clerk told me, is that it takes a few minutes. Due to the time being over, we decided to do it.
If you insist, we could take more time, if it's the will of the committee to accept that, and go in camera.