Evidence of meeting #38 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:20 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Mr. Mezhevoj, is there anything you'd like to add? I see your hand is up.
12:20 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
Yes. I would like to add to Kateryna Rashevska's comments about the group of 31. I have this list of people. This is a list of the children who were stolen by Russian authorities. This list includes my children, Bohdan Yermokhin and Filipp Golovnya, and all other children.
When I arrived in Latvia, my child had a Russian ID card. One of his friends—I can't say his family name—told him that three days after we left the camp, all the children were placed in foster families in Moscow, and he was also placed in a foster family. My son asked him how he liked it there, and he told him, “What can I do? I have nowhere to go back to. My house was destroyed. Here at least I have a place to stay.” That was the response of that boy.
That's all I can add.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
I would like to go to the second round.
I invite Ms. Damoff to take the floor for five minutes.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I want to thank all the witnesses for being here, in particular the young people who have come to share their stories. I can't imagine how retraumatizing it is for you to share your stories, but know how important it has been for us to hear you and for Canadians to hear your voice here in Canada. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your bravery.
I wanted to talk a bit about mental health. If it's too difficult for the young people testifying to talk about this, I'm happy for the others to talk about it.
Research has shown that the younger the age of people who are taken into situations like this, the harder the psychological consequences are. I think all of you talked about the support you're getting since you have been back in Ukraine, but can you talk a bit about what's needed and how we in Canada can support the difficult transition to coming back home? The psychological abuse you have lived through while in Russia won't go away just because you crossed the border.
That's for whoever would like to take that question. It's open for anyone.
12:25 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Save Ukraine
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
If I may, I can begin. As I speak, maybe our children present here will think about whether they would like to add something.
You are absolutely right. Everything depends on the age of a child and how long they spend in occupied territories or in Russia. It depends on particular circumstances, such as how they were deported and how they were transferred. There were cases when the military would dress them up and cases when military Russian personnel would use the threat of weaponry. They would place them in their military vehicles and remove them from Ukrainian territory to Russia, so obviously there could be all kinds of trauma related to that.
Those 200 people we rescued all have different stories. The first thing that every one of them needs, whether it's in Canada or in Ukraine, is safety and permanency. These are the main things that are required by children. That's why we created Hope and Healing Centers: It's so that these children can go through a six-month program of rehabilitation. They live there. They are fed there. We clothe them. They are able to study the Ukrainian curriculum.
There is a psychological person on staff and all kinds of services are present there that would allow these children to rejuvenate their lives, and we are doing all this, as you can understand, during the war that's going on. We are not only bringing them back; we are also rehabilitating them and reintegrating them back into society.
Now I would like to ask our children to maybe share their ideas.
12:25 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:] I would like to add that it depends, of course, on their age and what their attitude is to Ukraine and how they love Ukraine.
I spent nine months in the territory of Russia. I had a specific attitude. No matter what they did, I didn't want to abandon Ukraine. I didn't want to receive Russian citizenship, even though they told me, “You don't have parents and it would be better for you to assimilate, to adapt.” I was refusing it outright, but I know that my brother, who was 12 years old, was more susceptible to the psychological pressure that was placed on him.
We were all in different foster families. He remembers that in Ukraine there were Russians and that there were shellings and bombings. In Russia, it was a peaceful environment, so for him.... I was older, so I understood that it impacted him and I realized even then that maybe he would not be coming back, because there would be all kinds of barriers to his coming back. If parents do want to bring their child back, or if it's a sister or a brother, if the Russians know there is family back in Ukraine, they place an even bigger psychological pressure on them to prevent them from thinking about going back to Ukraine.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you, Ms. Damoff.
Now I would like to invite Mr. Genuis to take the floor for five minutes.
The floor is yours, Mr. Genuis.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to join others in saluting the heroism and resilience of our witnesses. Of course, for all of us, these stories make us think of our own families and children and how horrible it must be to be in these situations.
I also think of my grandmother, who was a Holocaust survivor. She spent part of the war separated from her family, in hiding. The promise we made at the end of that war to her generation was “never again”. We have failed to deliver on that promise, as we are again hearing testimony of what is clearly a genocide planned in and perpetrated from the highest levels of the Putin regime. Vladimir Putin himself is directly involved in this.
I want to focus my question on hearing more first-person testimony, but I want to invite the NGO representatives to respond in writing to this initial question: Which further individuals should be sanctioned for their involvement in these crimes? Which further international legal processes do you think should be convened, and against which individuals?
These are concrete proposals our committee can make, so I'd appreciate your following up in writing on those points.
I'd like to ask the young people here to specifically share any efforts those who were controlling you used to force you into propaganda activities.
Were you forced to do certain things that you understood would be used as Russian propaganda? Were you filmed? Would other children sometimes try to not participate in those activities? What would happen to them if they refused to participate in those activities?
12:30 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Save Ukraine
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
I will try to explain that to the children.
Do you know of any crimes Russia committed, or any propaganda or pressure? Can you share what you think were illegal methods applied to you—the wrong things the Russians did to you? You can speak about that here.
12:30 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
There was a teacher who worked at the camp. She beat the children. For example, she beat me because I left the territory of the camp just for a bit. Another boy was beaten because she thought he had stolen her things, even though that was not the case. She had no proof of that.
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
Hello. My name is Vladyslav.
We had a situation in the camp. My friend was also pro-Ukrainian, and Astakhov, the chief of the camp, said something to him. He wouldn't listen. He continued to have his pro-Ukrainian position. We were in our room. After that, Astakhov understood he couldn't do anything to us, but there were other children our age, and they could beat us up, yell at us and gang up on us. He told them we were pro-Ukrainian. Then, in the evening, eight guys came in and started to beat my friend and kick him in the head. I said to them, “Hey, guys, that's no way to solve the issue. Let's talk.” They still beat him up.
The next day, we were sent to the isolation room—the punishment room—and spent two days there.
12:35 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Save Ukraine
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
Allow me to add that Vladyslav is talking about Astakhov, who was basically the director of the camp. During the annexation of Crimea, he was in a special unit of the riot police, the Berkut. After Crimea was annexed, he started to collaborate and work for Russia. That's the camp where he was committing all of these crimes against children. He was intimidating them. It was basically torture. He kept them locked up and deprived them of food and water. He used different forms of punishment against the children. Children say that very rarely, after a personal conversation with him, would any child not agree to take on Russian citizenship and accept it with all of the conditions.
That's why Vladyslav is a hero for me. It's because he did not betray his ideas. He consistently kept his Ukrainian identity and withstood the pressures, trials and attempts to make him into a Russian child. I also understand how hard it was for other children, because it was easier for them to give in, give up and accept all of the conditions, from taking on Russian citizenship to everything else. Very often those children who did not agree would be committed to a mental ward. They could keep them heavily medicated with special medication.
Denys could probably add a few words about himself, if he so chooses.
Thank you.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you.
I have Mr. Mezhevoj. You can take the floor and add whatever you want on this question.
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
Indeed, I would like to complement the answer and tell you about my children being in the Russian Federation in the Polyany camp.
First of all, children were made to attend discotheques. That was for children who after the war were afraid of loud noises. They were shown movies about the war, about Cruella, who made dogs into a fur coat. The children were basically traumatized. They were made to attend movie theatres and these discotheques.
As the young person here mentioned, there were children who were ready to intimidate those who maintained their pro-Ukrainian position. These were older boys who would come in and say, “You are wrong to say this. Do not do this.” They were in charge of the younger children in the camp. They intimidated them and pressured them. They were sort of watchmen. That's what happened in that camp.
Additionally, children underwent a thorough medical examination. We don't know why, but my five-year-old child had to give blood for syphilis. I'm not even sure why. Additionally, they would give them some green pills. Nobody knows what those pills were. They told them they were vitamins. Nobody even knew what these pills were.
Thank you.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you.
I'm sorry. I have three witnesses who raised their hands to speak.
What do you think? Do we leave them and ask Ms. McPherson, and then I can let them go after that?
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Okay.
Please go ahead, Mr. Denys Berezhnyi. You have the floor for a few minutes.
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
I can tell you about a situation that happened. There was a child in a camp who did not listen to the camp leaders. That child was sent to a psychiatric ward because they thought the child was mentally ill. The child didn't sleep or eat, so they were committed to a mental ward.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
Thank you. This is what I'd like to add.
When I was in my punishment cell, in isolation, they would give me eight pills and they were saying I had to take them or they would send me to a mental hospital. I would say, “No. I don't know what these are. I'm not going to take them.” They then took everything from me. I had a tiny room, two by three metres, with a small window. I had to stay there and I thought I would really go crazy.
Thank you.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
I would like to add that the police were called on us because we were misbehaving, or, rather, we were showing that we were from Ukraine. One time girls put a blue and yellow balloon up, and they came into our room and popped the balloon and then took us to the police station. They took down our information and said that if we ever did anything like that again, we would be sent to the police again and the police would decide what to do with us.
Thank you.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you.
Now I invite Madam Rashevska to take the floor, please.
12:40 p.m.
Legal Expert, Regional Center for Human Rights, Save Ukraine
[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]
Here is the story that I would like to share.
A boy named Oleksandr Ursol was taken by Russia for so-called medical treatment. He had been wounded by a Russian missile during the Mariupol bombing. There is a story about him in the Kyiv Independent.
That boy did not receive the medical treatment that he really needed. He had to be treated again in Georgia first, and then in Germany. Georgian doctors say that the boy was prescribed a certain diet that led to a lot of weight loss for this child and that his very life was in danger due to that diet.
Some children are given these pills and others are not provided medical treatment, and that's how they justify their reasons for deportation.
That's what I wanted to say. Thank you.