International Trade Committee on Nov. 28th, 2023

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

In any event, I'm challenging your ruling on that in that respect.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Do you want to challenge the chair?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We will take a vote on whether to uphold the chair's ruling or not.

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 6; nays 5)

Pursuant to Standing Order 75(1), consideration of clause 1, which is the short title, is postponed.

The chair now calls clauses 2 to 6.

There are no amendments submitted for clauses 2 to 6. Do we have unanimous consent to group them for the vote?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Shall clauses 2 to 6 carry?

(Clauses 2 to 6 inclusive agreed to on division)

(On clause 7)

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

On clause 7, we have CPC-1 in the name of Mr. Seeback.

Mr. Seeback, do you want to move that?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I do, yes. Thank you, Madam Chair.

I briefly talked about this during our motion to try to allow all of these amendments to be considered. This is actually in the “Purpose” section of the enabling legislation.

There are two things. One is “strengthen cooperation on energy matters, including the export of Canadian energy to Ukraine”. As discussed at committee before, Ukraine sits on the third-largest proven LNG reserve in Europe. Finding a way to co-operate with Ukraine on that would do a number of things. First, it would provide Ukraine with energy security. Second, it would allow for additional exports of LNG to Europe, which would, of course, have the effect of defunding Vladimir Putin's war machine.

This would be a very useful thing to have included, not only in the enabling legislation, but also in the free trade agreement itself. There are things that are hurtful, I think, in this trade agreement. There are things that could be helpful. That's one of them.

The other issue is “strengthen cooperation on matters relating to nuclear technology, including the export of Canadian nuclear equipment, expertise and uranium to Ukraine.” Again, energy security is a very critical issue for Ukraine. It has lost 40% of its electricity-generating capacity in the course of the war. Both Canada and Ukraine have a proud history of nuclear technology. Canada could absolutely help Ukraine in further developing its electricity generation capacity through nuclear technology.

Ukraine actually used to be an exporter of electricity to Europe. Again, this would be a net benefit to Ukraine. They would have increased energy exports, which would be revenue for the government in the middle of a war. Those electricity exports would further reduce the reliance on Russian gas in Europe, thereby defunding Putin's war machine.

These amendments are very strong, purposeful amendments that are helpful for Ukraine. I would hope that all members of the committee would support them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Seeback.

I will now will rule on the admissibility of that.

Bill C-57 seeks to implement the 2023 free trade agreement between Canada and Ukraine. Clause 7 of the bill states, “The purpose of this Act is to implement the Agreement” and it provides a summary list of the objectives that are elaborated through its provisions.

The amendment seeks to add to that list two additional objectives. The first is to strengthen co-operation on energy matters, which would include the export of Canadian energy to Ukraine. The second is to strengthen co-operation on matters relating to nuclear technology, which would include the export of Canadian nuclear equipment, expertise and uranium to Ukraine.

According to House of Commons Procedure and Practice, “An amendment to a bill that was referred to a committee after second reading is out of order if it is beyond the scope and principle of the bill.”

In the opinion of the chair, the addition of the aforementioned objectives would create new concepts that are beyond the scope of the bill. Therefore, I rule the amendment inadmissible.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Chair, I'm going to challenge that ruling.

The Ukrainian ambassador very clearly said recently that energy security is an issue they want to work on with Canada, so I'd like to challenge the ruling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

There's been a challenge to my ruling, so we will have to vote on that.

This is to support the ruling of the chair that the proposed amendment by Mr. Seeback is out of order.

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 6; nays 5)

(Clause 7 agreed to on division)

There are no amendments submitted for clauses 8 to 15.

Do I have unanimous consent to group clauses 8 to 15 for the vote?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Shall clauses 8 to 15 carry?

(Clauses 8 to 15 inclusive agreed to on division)

We have a new clause from the Bloc member.

Do you want to speak to that, Monsieur Savard-Tremblay?

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I'll be very brief.

As was mentioned in the testimony, there is a chapter on corporate responsibility. We know that Ukraine is grappling with a corruption problem. Saying that is not a matter of pointing fingers at the country; we know that it wants to address the problem.

The purpose of this proposal is to strengthen the necessary transparency and control mechanisms that must be imposed on Canadian companies operating abroad.

I won't reread the text, since you have it in front of you, but the idea behind this proposal is to set up an expert panel to, among other things, ensure compliance with the principles and guidelines of the agreement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Savard-Tremblay.

Mr. Seeback.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I certainly—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Before Mr. Seeback speaks, I do need to inform you that I will be ruling it inadmissible, and I will read out the reason that it's inadmissible.

Bill C-57 seeks to enact the act to implement the 2023 free trade agreement between Canada and Ukraine. The amendment proposes, among other things, the appointment of “a group of experts responsible for...ensuring that Canadian companies operating in Ukraine comply with the principles and guidelines referred to in section 15.14 of the Agreement”.

As House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, states on page 772:

Since an amendment may not infringe upon the financial initiative of the Crown, it is inadmissible if it imposes a charge on the public treasury, or if it extends the objects or purposes or relaxes the conditions and qualifications specified in the royal recommendation.

In my opinion, the amendment proposes a new entity, which would impose a new charge on the public treasury. Therefore, I rule the amendment inadmissible.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Madam Chair, I, too, respectfully and politely challenge your ruling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I have never had so many challenges as I am getting today.

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 6; nays 5)

Thank you very much.

We are now on to CPC-2.

Mr. Genuis, go ahead.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I am optimistic that you'll make the right decision this time.

This is an important amendment that would seek to give effect to the desire of many Canadians to allow Ukraine to have access to the weapons that it needs to effectively prosecute its war against the illegal, genocidal invasion of the Putin regime.

This would add the following new clause 15.1:

Report

15.1 (1) Within 30 days after the day on which this section comes into force, the Minister of Public Works and Government Services must prepare a detailed plan to increase production in Canada of defence supplies, as defined in section 2 of the Defence Production Act, particularly defence supplies required by the Ukrainian armed forces or the Canadian Forces.

(2) The Minister of Public Works and Government Services must publish the plan, or give notice of its availability, in Part I of the Canada Gazette and in any other manner that the Minister considers appropriate.

The effect of this would be to require the government to develop a plan, and to report on that plan, to increase defence production. This is very important because in increasingly fraught and challenging times globally, which include the war in Ukraine, we need to have the munitions, the military supplies, to defend ourselves, and Ukraine is in vital need of those supplies.

Getting to where we need to be on this requires a plan around defence production, and industry requires certainty and clarity from the government about what that demand is going to be over the long term. There have been messages sent to industry by the government about what the needs may be, but the kind of certainty and predictability that would be associated with the detailed plan that we're calling for would help Ukraine. It would also help Canada because it would provide industry with the certainty it needs to make investments in production that are going to meet Ukraine's needs and Canada's needs over the long term.

This is a good amendment that responds to a vital need—that is, for Ukraine to have the munitions it requires and for the government to lay out a plan in advance that would facilitate the increase in defence production in Canada that would get us towards that objective. This is a common-sense amendment that I don't think anybody should oppose, so I hope we'll have the agreement of the committee to allow the amendment to proceed and to be adopted.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

I am going to suspend the meeting for a couple of minutes while I ensure I have consulted with legislative counsel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I call the meeting back to order.

I have consulted with legislative counsel and I will make the following ruling.

Bill C-57 seeks to enact the act to implement the 2023 free trade agreement between Canada and the Ukraine. The amendment seeks to mandate the preparation of a plan to increase Canadian production of defence supplies required by the Ukrainian armed forces or the Canadian Forces.

As House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, dictates on page 770, “An amendment to a bill that was referred to a committee after second reading is out of order if it is beyond the scope and principle of the bill.”

In the opinion that has been well thought out, I say that the aforementioned plan contains a new concept that is beyond the scope of the bill; therefore, unfortunately, I rule that the amendment is inadmissible.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

With great deference to your office, but taking into consideration what may be some reluctance to rule it out of order, I will do us all a favour and challenge the ruling so the amendment can be allowed if members are willing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

All right.

Shall the ruling of the chair be sustained?

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 6; nays 5)

All right.

I have CPC-3.

Does the member want to move it?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

This introduces a new clause regarding the donation of surplus military equipment to Ukraine.

It says:

For as long as any territory of Ukraine is occupied by armed forces of the Russian Federation, the Minister of National Defence must periodically review Canada's inventory of military equipment and offer to donate to Ukraine any military equipment that that Minister deems to be surplus or no longer useful to Canada.

Madam Chair, it's simple and straightforward. If we have military equipment that is no longer useful to Canada and would be useful to Ukraine in their existential struggle for the defence of their territory and their people, we should be providing that equipment. Conservatives have been consistently advocating on this issue in the past in instances where we would have an opportunity to revitalize our own stockpile by purchasing new state-of-the-art equipment for our military and sharing with Ukraine older equipment we would likely not use that could be used by the Ukrainians right now. Better it be used in the battlefield defending Ukraine's people and territory than gathering dust in a context where it is very likely to not be used here in Canada.

The amendment is not highly prescriptive. It simply says the Minister of National Defence should periodically take a look at our stockpiles, at our inventory, and make an assessment about what can be contributed. I think this is helpful and constructive. It would make a difference. It would make a real, concrete difference for Ukraine in its defence of its territory and its people, so I hope this amendment will find the support of members.

Thanks.