Evidence of meeting #31 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was terms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
I call the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to order.
On our agenda today is Bill C-10, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (minimum penalties for offences involving firearms) and to make a consequential amendment to another Act.
The witnesses appearing are from Correctional Service Canada, Mr. Ian McCowan and Mr. Ross Toller.
Who will be presenting, of the two of you?
3:35 p.m.
Ian McCowan Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Research, Correctional Service Canada
Mr. Chairman, I will be doing the initial presentation, and as the questions arise, my colleague, Mr. Toller, will also be available.
3:35 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Research, Correctional Service Canada
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman.
[Technical difficulty--Editor]...Service Canada. Ross Toller is with me. He is the assistant commissioner for correctional operations and programs.
Mr. Chairman, I haven't prepared an opening statement. We have been made aware of some areas of the committee's interest with respect to the costing implications of the mandatory minimum legislation involving firearms. I am also aware that Minister Toews was here yesterday and that he provided certain bottom-line information in terms of what the costing implications would be...[Technical difficulty--Editor]
3:35 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Research, Correctional Service Canada
We're here.
3:35 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Research, Correctional Service Canada
Mr. Chairman, what I was going to say is that we're very much in the committee's hands. If it's helpful, I can give you a very quick synopsis of the costing implications of the legislation, perhaps a couple more details than what you heard yesterday. If you would prefer to launch right into questions, we're happy to do that. We're very much in your hands.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
3:35 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Research, Correctional Service Canada
Why don't I do the synopsis, keeping in mind the suggestion that was just made that I do it slowly? I will launch through a couple of thoughts.
My understanding is that the committee is interested in getting information in three areas with respect to the costing implications: first of all, some statistics on the increase in the inmate population that would occur if the bill went through; secondly, some information generally on how much it would cost to keep a person in jail for a year; and finally, some information as to whether or not there are differences in costing as between federal and provincial levels and also as between different levels of security.
Dealing with each of those three issues in turn, I'll deal first with the statistics on the increase in the inmate population that is projected if the bill passes.
My understanding is that Minister Toews was here yesterday and gave the committee what's effectively the bottom line, which is that by the fifth year after the implementation of the bill, we anticipate an increase of approximately 270 offenders per year. Based on historical analysis of federal offenders who have been convicted of firearms offences and on projected population trends, it's our estimate that this increase of 270 offenders could be broken down further across security levels as follows: we are anticipating 82 additional offenders in maximum, 164 in medium, and 24 in minimum security.
What that means in practical terms is a new medium security institution and some additional maximum security space. The increase in minimum security can be accommodated within existing institutions because we have a surplus, apparently, at that security band.
In terms of the bottom line, what it comes down to for cost—and my understanding is that Minister Toews has already given this to you yesterday—it would mean approximately $246 million over the first five years, that's operating and capital included, and approximately $40 million ongoing thereafter.
That's the first question, and I'm going to turn to the next two.
How much does it cost to keep a person in jail for a year? I should indicate at the outset that the latest data I can give is for the 2004-05 costing year. The 2005-06 figures will be available for public release soon, and if it's helpful to the committee, we can provide those to you when they're available.
In terms of the cost at the institutional level to maintain an offender, using the 2004-05 estimates--I'll read out some numbers slowly--it's $87,919 in an institution, or $241 a day, and it's $20,320 in the community, or $56 a day, for an overall combined total of $68,216, or $187 per day. If you take the institutional number and the community number and tie them together for an organizational average, that's how you get the $68,216.
I'm going to break it down now on the basis of security level--and I'm happy to go through the numbers a couple of times, if that's helpful. In terms of the cost at each security level, it's obviously more expensive at a maximum level, where it's $113,591; at a medium level it's $75,661; and at a minimum level it's $83,643. I can explain to you in a minute why that's slightly higher than at the medium security level. For women's facilities it's $166,642. When you do an average of our institutional ranges, which I've just read to you, that gets you the $87,919 that I mentioned to you a moment ago.
Dealing with the community side of the equation, if you look at our CCCs, it's $49,043. When you look at those individuals on parole, it's $19,113. That results in an overall average in the community of $20,320--a number I shared with you a few minutes ago. It's an overall average, when you look across our entire system, of $68,216.
Would it be helpful, Mr. Chairman, if I went through the numbers again?
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Committee, do you need those numbers one more time?
One more time, please.
3:40 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Research, Correctional Service Canada
From the top--again, these are 2004-05 numbers.
Maximum security, $113,591; medium security, $75,661; minimum security, $83,643; women's facilities, $166,642; and overall average in the institutions, $87,919.
In the community, CCCs, $49,043; for those individuals on parole, $19,113; and the overall average in the community, $20,320. The overall average cost of maintaining an offender across the system, $68,216.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Sorry, did you say it was $241 if you're in jail, but $113,591 for maximum...? I don't understand that.
3:40 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Research, Correctional Service Canada
The average for all of the institutions, all bands of security levels, is $87,919. If you look at just the maximum security stripe, it's $113,591.
3:40 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Research, Correctional Service Canada
I can get you that number, Mr. Chairman.
As of October 2006, CSC is responsible for 21,277 offenders, of whom 12,992 are incarcerated and 8,285 are supervised in the community.
3:40 p.m.
Bloc
3:40 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Research, Correctional Service Canada
I'm sorry, I'll speak carefully and more slowly.
Again, that's 21,277 offenders. In terms of incarcerated offenders, it's 12,992; and in terms of offenders supervised in the community, it's 8,285.
3:40 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Research, Correctional Service Canada
It's 8,285.
So, Mr. Chairman, to round out a couple of additional facts in answer to the three questions that were posed initially by the committee, the explanation, very quickly, for why minimum is more expensive than medium is that we have a considerable amount of surplus space at minimum at the present time.
Turning lastly to the issue of provincial comparisons, I can indicate that the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics does publish some comparative data. It's a little difficult to compare, for a few reasons. It's a bit of an apples and oranges problem. There are differences in how various correctional systems calculate their inmate populations and also differences in terms of what expenses are attributable to maintaining offenders. That said, clearly the federal system is more expensive than the provincial systems, and there are a few reasons for that.
First of all, there is a need for a higher level of security in the federal system, given the nature of our inmates. Second, we have a greater presence in terms of programs and interventions, again given that we have a more difficult population who are with us for longer periods of time. All of that said as qualifiers, Mr. Chairman, I can give you some comparative data that, again, the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics published in relation to the 2004-05 year. They calculate the provincial cost on aggregate as being $141.78 per day. That's $141.78 per day compared with $259.05 per day federally. That's $259.05 per day federally.
You will have noted, Mr. Chairman, that I provided you with another figure a few minutes ago of $241 per day in terms of the cost of maintaining an offender federally for the 2004-05 year. The difference is simply that there are some different costing assumptions that are in play between the two figures, the one from CSC and the one from CCJS, the largest one being the inmate count that's used. It's a flow-through population, so there are different methodologies you can use in terms of how you count inmates. That effectively is the major difference for the two numbers being different. They are both working on the same institutional operating expenditures.
Mr. Chairman, I apologize for the number of numbers that were used in the course of that presentation. I hope they're all there in terms of everyone's notes.
Mr. Toller and I would be pleased to answer any questions the committee might have.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
The numbers are certainly valuable, and I know there was high interest by the committee as to the costs as well as available space.
Mr. Bagnell.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
One of our witnesses, I think it was on Bill C-9--anyway, one of these many bills that could incarcerate people longer--suggested there would be 5,400 more people serving their time in prison. That works out roughly to $475 million a year, if I calculated right, but in that ballpark. We don't want to get into exact figures, but that works out to roughly $475 million simply for operational costs.
If you needed to--let's say they overestimated the 5,400--bring it down to 5,000, plus whatever the other bills might bring into the prisons, do you have room for 5,000 more prisoners, or would there have to be capital costs?
3:45 p.m.
Ross Toller Assistant Commissioner, Correctional Operations and Programs, Correctional Service Canada
If the question was, do we have room for an additional 5,000 inmates, the answer is absolutely not.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Sorry, I'm not only talking about federally, but federally you don't.
3:45 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Correctional Operations and Programs, Correctional Service Canada
No, federally we don't, not at all.
