Justice Committee on Nov. 8th, 2006

[Ian McCowan]

The figures we give you today--I can go back to them just here--do not include the section 810 order situation, but they do include the LTSO situation. Of the 8,285 inmates supervised in the community as of October 2006, 15% were on day parole—

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Slowly--c'est important.

[Ian McCowan]

15% were on day parole, 48% were on full parole, 35% were on statutory release, and 2% were on long-term supervision orders. Not included in that number is the scenario under section 810 of the Criminal Code, which we just discussed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

Mr. McCowan, can you give us numbers of how many people are incarcerated in maximum, medium, and minimum security?

[Ian McCowan]

Somewhere in my notes I will be able to uncover the most recent data.

Ross, do you have that?

[Ross Toller]

I don't have the totals. I have the maximum. There are nine maximum security facilities.

If time permits, I could do one of two things. I could go down the counts for each of the nine. I don't have the totals here broken down like that. Similarly, with the mediums--or I could give you the sheet afterwards.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Give it to us subsequently. Send it to the chair or the clerk of this committee.

If I could, Mr. Chair, if it could be circulated at that point—

Mr. McCowan, the reason I wanted that information is I'm trying to figure out the criteria or the assumptions you or your department made to determine the $246 million figure. Given the severity of the penalties, am I safe in assuming most of the people, if convicted and sentenced under this bill, would go into maximum security?

[Ian McCowan]

Of the 270 additional inmates we're projecting, starting in year five, 82 will be in maximum, 164 in medium, and 24 in—

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm sorry. I'm like Mr. Lemay. They didn't teach us shorthand in law school, so we can't keep up with that speed. I got the 82 maximum. How many in the medium—

[Ian McCowan]

In medium, 164, and 24 in minimum.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That was done based on the analysis you did of the bill?

[Ian McCowan]

Correct.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

In terms of the figures you gave us for the amount per year, per individual, $246 million does allow for some capital expenditure, if I understood your comments?

[Ian McCowan]

Correct.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

How much over that five-year period?

[Ian McCowan]

I don't have the specific number in front of me, but we're talking about the additional space that would be required to house the 270 individuals.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay. Today, or I guess it was yesterday, there was an announcement from the Minister of Public Safety that people convicted of murder were now going to have to spend their full two years' minimum in maximum security before they went into other parts of the prison population.

Have you taken into account the impact of the capacity of the system to absorb these additional ones under Bill C-10?

[Ian McCowan]

That has not been included in these particular projections. I'm aware of the items in the news this morning. I have been focused on preparing for this committee appearance, so I cannot give you a full sense of the latest, in terms of that development, but—

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Will you do that, Mr. McCowan, and advise us if there are some changes in the cost analysis because of this decision by the minister? What I'm concerned about is this. If we're going to keep that many more people in maximum security, are we going to have additional capital expenditures, given that the maximum security category is the one that is the most expensive of the three?

So I need to know, if by keeping those additional convicted murderers in maximum security for longer periods of time than they currently have been, in the last few years anyway, is it going to increase the cost of the imposition of this legislation?

[Ian McCowan]

First of all, the figures in the projections I've given you deal exclusively with the projected impact of the mandatory minimums firearms piece. That's the only thing it covers.

I understand what you're saying about the comment that was made yesterday about whether there is an additional projection in terms of an impact. We can certainly undertake to look at that issue and get back to the committee with a response.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I would like a response. If it doesn't change anything, I want to know that. If it does change, I want to know to what degree it changes, in both operational dollars and capital dollars.

[Ian McCowan]

Understood.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Comartin.

Mr. Thompson.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Welcome, and thank you for being here.

I wasn't surprised by the figures. I know that protecting society is a very costly venture and something has to be done, but the cost of crime is pretty expensive too. I'm going to do quite a bit of research in the future on that.

In New York City, for example, when they brought in their broken window theory, graffiti, it didn't matter, you went to jail if you were arrested. Apparently there has been a tremendous savings to that city because of the decrease in crime versus the incarceration of the people who committed it.

Do you have any information on that?