Evidence of meeting #72 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was alcohol.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Evan Graham  National Coordinator, Drug Evaluation and Classification Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Greg Yost  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice Canada

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

I would like to call the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to order on Wednesday, May 30, 2007. The orders for today are centred around Bill C-32, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (impaired driving) and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.

Appearing before the committee is the Minister of Justice, the Honourable Rob Nicholson, and one departmental support individual, Greg Yost, counsel, criminal law policy section. From the RCMP we have Evan Graham, national coordinator, drug evaluation and classification program. Thank you for being here, Minister and gentlemen.

Please proceed, Minister.

May 30th, 2007 / 3:45 p.m.

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of Justice

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. As you indicated, I'm here with Greg Yost from the criminal law policy section and Corporal Evan Graham from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I just want to make sure you know that he's not here for my protection; he's here for your edification. I want to make that clear at the outset.

I'm pleased to appear before you again as you begin consideration of Bill C-32, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (impaired driving) and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.

I note that the bill received the support of all parties in the House, but that a number of members have expressed various concerns and look forward to the standing committee's hearings during which experts should be able to respond to their questions.

I want to reiterate that the government is open to consideration of any amendments that are consistent with the scope and principle of this bill and that you consider would strengthen the bill.

As you know, the bill deals with three components: drug impaired driving, defences to a charge of driving with blood alcohol content exceeding 80 milligrams, and amendments that respond to various problems in the Criminal Code's impaired driving provisions.

With respect to drug impaired driving, I should indicate that the provisions of Bill C-32 are almost identical to Bill C-16 as it was amended by the standing committee in the last Parliament. It will provide the legislative framework for the drug recognition expert or the DRE program.

Canada is actually behind some countries, including the United States, in this particular field. Since 1984, for instance, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the United States has supported a drug recognition expert training program, which was initially developed by the Los Angeles, California, police department. DRE training has been validated through both laboratory and field studies conducted by Johns Hopkins University.

In 1987, the highway safety committee of the International Association of Chiefs of Police was requested by the NHTSA to participate in the development of a national expansion of drug recognition experts, as well as to oversee certifying of the DREs. It took until 1992 for all the work to be done on the first set of IACP standards to be adopted. Those standards have been revised over the years based on the advice of medical and other experts.

In Canada, DRE-certified officers only use DRE where a suspect voluntarily participates in the testing. Once our legislation authorizing police to make DRE demands is in place, we expect Canada to continue to look to the IACP process to ensure we are always using the most up-to-date, scientifically validated practices and procedures.

Of course my officials and I are not the experts on the pharmacology of various drugs, their effects on the ability of a person to drive, or how long the drug lingers in the body, but we will endeavour to respond to any questions that members have. I'm pleased to have a couple of experts with me.

I would point out that we have been guided by the advice of the drugs and driving committee of the Canadian Society of Forensic Science. In 1999, when it was examining the impaired driving provisions, it suggested that there was a need to have legislative demands to perform sobriety tests and DRE evaluations.

Some members of this committee are likely familiar with the DRE program from previous hearings. Therefore, I will outline just the main steps.

First, the officer must suspect the presence of a drug in the body before demanding sobriety tests. That suspicion could be based on a number of factors, including the smell of marijuana or physical symptoms such as eyes that do not react normally to light. This is similar to the suspicion of alcohol in the body based on the smell of alcohol or watery eyes, which is the requirement for a demand for a breath test on a screening device at roadside.

Second, it is only if the driver has failed the roadside sobriety test that the officer can demand further tests at the police station. That the driver is unable to walk a straight line or stand on one foot and hold the other six inches off the ground--the usual tests--the officer now has reasonable grounds to believe that the impairment may be caused by a drug or a combination of drugs and alcohol. This is similar to the officer who has reasonable grounds to believe that the person is impaired by alcohol can take the person to the station for a breath test, the result of which can be used in court.

I believe that members will agree that a person who can't perform the simple roadside sobriety tests should not be driving. If the impairment is caused by alcohol or a drug, the person's impairment is a criminal act. The person has voluntarily consumed a substance that reduces his or her ability to drive.

If the impairment is caused by a medical condition, the person will be sent for medical attention. It is then a matter for provincial driver licensing authorities.

The DRE-trained officer will examine the person and have the person perform certain prescribed tests, including, for example, eye examinations in different lighting, muscle tone, blood pressure, and pulse. Before the DRE expert can demand that a bodily substance be analyzed for the presence of a drug, the expert will have formed the opinion that the person's ability is impaired by a family of drugs or a combination of drugs and alcohol.

Third, the analysis of a bodily sample will either confirm or refute the presence of the drug that the DRE has identified as causing the impairment. This is a check on the officer's identification of the involvement of a specific drug family.

Ultimately the court will have before it evidence of erratic driving or behaviour, failure to complete simple physical coordination tests, a DRE report on the physical symptoms observed that lead to the conclusion the impairment is caused by a family of drugs, and proof by analysis that the person had the drugs in his or her body. It's my understanding that the courts in Canada have found that sufficient evidence to found a conviction in cases where the DRE has proceeded with the voluntary participation of a driver. What Bill C-32 will do is compel the person to participate in the physical coordination tests and in the DRE process.

I now turn to the current use of evidence to the contrary in the courts. I note that during the debate at second reading, reforms we are proposing received strong support. In particular, Mr. Comartin, who has studied this issue quite extensively and has seen the consequences of impaired driving, has said a number of times that the way the two-beer defence has been used is almost a “scandal”.

I agree with him. A two-beer defence is a scandal. It may have had merit in an era when breath test instruments used a needle that had to be read by a technician and the results written down. But with modern electronic instruments that have built-in operability checks and that print out the results, these reasons to accept a two-beer defence no longer apply. The two-beer defence makes all the care that goes into testing and approving instruments, and training operators to use them, close to a waste of time.

One question that was raised was whether it was appropriate for the Criminal Code to restrict the kind of evidence that can be brought forward. I can tell you that Parliament has done so in the past--for example, in the rape shield provisions that restrict the cross-examination of a victim of sexual assault regarding past sexual conduct. It is altogether appropriate, therefore, for Parliament to limit the evidence to the contrary to evidence that has scientific merit. The accused will still be able to bring evidence of consumption, but unless there is evidence either that the approved instrument was malfunctioning or was not operating properly, the evidence of consumption will only be relevant if it is compatible both with the BAC recorded on the instrument and also with the person being under 80 milligrams at the time of driving--for example, because the person had a drink after the driving and before the testing.

I would like to refer to a few other particularly notable reforms proposed by Bill C-32. The bill proposes to increase the current penalties in several ways. I think the higher minimum of $1,000 for a first offence, up from the current $600, reflects the seriousness of the crime. We also propose to come down harder on the repeat impaired driver by increasing the mandatory terms of imprisonment, including raising from 90 to 120 days the minimum for a third-time offender.

We do not believe it is appropriate--and I trust the committee will agree--for a person who has two previous convictions to be able to seek to serve the sentence on an intermittent basis, as they now do. Moreover, we are proposing that the maximum term of imprisonment, if the prosecution proceeds summarily, be increased from six to 18 months.

Our provincial colleagues tell us that there are currently many cases where they will ask for more than six months of imprisonment. They have to proceed by indictment, a more serious and more expensive procedure, even though they know they will not be seeking more than 18 months. Eighteen months' maximum on a summary conviction is the same as that provided for a number of offences, including uttering threats to cause death or bodily harm, assault causing bodily harm, sexual assault, and forcible confinement. So the government believes that the threat of harm caused by the impaired driver merits the same maximum punishment on summary convictions as those offences.

In addition, the bill proposes creating new offences of being over 80 milligrams or refusing to provide a breath sample and causing bodily harm or death. These new offences reflect the general approach of the Criminal Code to treat impaired...or being over 80 milligrams and refusal in the same manner.

Currently the Criminal Code only has the offence of impaired driving causing bodily harm or death. In an accident situation, there may be no direct evidence of the person's driving. The symptoms ordinarily used to indicate impairment, such as being unsteady on one's feet, may be attributed to the effects of the accident. There is, therefore, an incentive for the person involved in an accident not to provide a breath sample, and because the certificate establishing BAC can be crucial evidence to establish that the person's ability to drive was in fact impaired....

I believe Bill C-32 is a balanced legislation that will greatly assist the police, prosecutors, and the courts in dealing with impaired drivers. I urge the committee to deal with it expeditiously.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my remarks. I'd be pleased to answer any questions that the committee may have.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Minister.

Before we get into questions, do you have one hour available for the committee?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I do, Mr. Chairman.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you. The departmental member as well as the corporal can stay longer, I assume. Thank you.

Mr. Murphy.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I don't have a huge problem with what you have said. I have more of a problem with what you didn't say. In the House you've used terms like the opposition has “obstructed” or “delayed” some of these Justice bills. I might point out for you that there have been 11 bills--including Bill C-35 that was just sent up--or projects completed by this committee in just over 30 weeks of actual sitting.

I hoped you would open your remarks by complimenting at least the chairman in running a very nice committee. He obviously didn't get the big manual that we read about, because this committee has been working very well.

If the minister won't compliment you, Mr. Chair, I will.

Now to the heart of the matter. The essence of the bill...it's been kicked around for a long time. I've read the notes. The intent is good. As I said in the House, in my notes, or my speeches, I think the devil's in the details, and we have to make sure we have a law that works. To that end, the principal question here is, why did the Prime Minister announce in September 2006 that the $4.6 million RCMP drug impairment training budget would be eliminated because it didn't work? Why didn't it work? What are you going to replace it with to make sure this bill is effective?

Just as a contingency here, if I may, Mr. Chairman, perhaps the minister feels more comfortable in having Corporal Graham answer the question as to what the $4.6 million program was. And while he was involved--if he was involved--did he believe it didn't work and was not effective, in the Prime Minister's words?

This question is to either of you or both of you. What is going to be put in place to make sure the police have the tools to detect impaired driving to make this law efficacious?

4 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

You've covered a lot of territory.

I can tell you that I named this chairman specifically in question period when we were dealing with the age of protection. I stepped forward and said that he and Mr. Thompson had been pioneers in this area. They had a long-standing commitment to trying to have the Criminal Code changed in this area. I was fair about it. I said they didn't get a hostile reception from the previous government. I said they had received a lot of sympathy, but the bottom line was that there was no action on it.

So I did compliment them, and I think Canadians can appreciate the efforts they made in that area and in criminal law policy in this country in general. We owe them a great deal of thanks.

You also indicated the Liberal Party's cooperation. Certainly the bill we had yesterday in the House of Commons took a long time--one year. Quite frankly, I was disappointed by the position the Liberal Party took. This bill would have given mandatory prison terms for people who committed and were convicted of serious firearms offences.

I think you'd be the first to agree with me that every so often your leader talks about the problem of firearms crimes. Last night—and I have to be fair about this—about seven of your members wouldn't go along with the party's standing. A number of them didn't show up. Some of them sat in their places. I think over 20 Liberals did not go along with what the Liberal Party was doing. So those are the kinds of things we're disappointed about.

On our support for the RCMP programs and funding, that quite properly should be directed to my colleague Minister Day, who speaks on behalf of the RCMP. But in your concluding remarks I believe you indicated some concerns or questions about the implementation of testing there. That quite properly is a question for Corporal Graham to comment on.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

And what does he think about the $4.6 million program that was cut--whether it was effective?

4 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

My understanding is that it was tied to another bill, Bill C-16, which didn't make it. So if you're asking me about this government's commitment to law enforcement in this country, you can count on it, just as you can count on our policy on moving forward and getting tough on crime. As I said to some of my colleagues who talked about our agenda, I can assure you we're just getting started.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Are you ordering the corporal to not answer about the $4.6 million? Is that what you're doing?

4 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I asked Corporal Graham and he can comment on anything he likes. You asked me about funding for the RCMP. I indicated the question would be more properly directed to my colleague Stockwell Day, who speaks on behalf of the RCMP.

But you did raise questions about the testing, and since Corporal Graham is here with me this afternoon, I think it's quite appropriate that he comment on that.

4:05 p.m.

Corporal Evan Graham National Coordinator, Drug Evaluation and Classification Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

The drug evaluation and classification program we are currently running is the same program we were running with the previous Bill C-16, and before that with the first Bill C-32.

The $4.6 million that was announced as being cut wasn't really cut, because we never had it. A total of $7 million over three years was tied to Bill C-16. With the first year for all intents and purposes lapsing, it became $4.6 million while the bill itself was being debated. With the call for an election the $4.6 million was parked, showing that we still had the money, but we never had access to it.

Our current funding is through Canada's drug strategy. We receive an ongoing $2.1 million a year through the drug strategy for training. But right now there are no additional funds.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Did the Prime Minister say it was not effective and that's why it was eliminated from the budget? I guess you can't answer that.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

Thank you, Mr. Murphy.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

As the constable indicated, that announcement was contingent upon Bill C-16.... As happened so many times in the previous Parliament, many of those bills died on the order paper and were never brought into law. So I suggest you to look to the national drug strategy. I'm urging you and this committee to move ahead on this bill, which identifies some gaps and weaknesses in the present law, and some improvements. I think we'll all be better off with this bill.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Art Hanger

It sounds like it's a new program in training.

Monsieur Ménard.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Minister. I would appreciate it if you could focus strictly on the bill at hand, because so far, you have not said much about it. That is, after all, why you are here today.

When police officers, peace officers have reasonable grounds to believe that an individual is driving while drug-impaired, they will have new ways of assessing that individual. The legislative summaries refer to standardized field sobriety tests and drug recognition experts. These are two seemingly different processes, the second of which calls for training which would involve provincial areas of jurisdiction.

How will this new bill C-32 provide for the assessment of drug-impaired individuals? Why does the Criminal Code not contain numerical tests? There's no reference to set indices, but rather to reasonable grounds.

How will this play out in actual fact? Let's say, for instance, that I am on highway 20 and a police officer has reason to believe that I am driving while impaired by a drug. I want to understand what these expressions "standardized field sobriety test" and "drug recognition experts" mean.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you, Monsieur Ménard.

To be fair, you didn't get much on the bill itself because it's not what the question was directed towards. But that being said, I should indicate to you that as with all bills, this bill is respectful of provincial jurisdiction.

As you know, if a person is found with less than 80 milligrams of alcohol in his or her blood, for the most part, it is regulated by the province. I appreciate that in the province of Quebec there isn't a specific provision with respect to the 50 and 80 provisions. But there are nonetheless a number of provincial statutes on the books that, in my opinion, are actually complementary with respect to the Criminal Code powers.

With respect to your question and your example of a person driving down the street, we're not proposing any changes for the basis upon which you would be pulled over. The same indicia that are in place now as to when and how a police officer may pull you over would continue to apply.

With respect to the training and the individual, I'm going to ask for comments from Corporal Graham.

In my opening remarks, you heard about the regime we are suggesting be put in place. As I indicated to you, Canada is actually playing a bit of catch-up on this. We all recognize that it's not only alcohol; it's drugs and/or alcohol.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

I want to understand what this bill will change. The objective is to apprehend drug-impaired individuals. We seem to be hearing that there are new detection technologies available. Some people are concerned with the fact that cannabis remains in a person's system for quite a long time. I would like to understand the advantages of these two tests and in which way the provinces will be called upon to contribute. I want to understand the new offence that you have created, with respect to being found in possession of a drug. Ms. Freeman will deal with that at the second round, I am sure.

But let's start with the first part of my question, because until now you have not given us much of an explanation.

4:10 p.m.

Greg Yost Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice Canada

I will try to respond to the first part of your question as to what this legislation will change. First of all, it will be mandatory to take part in roadside sobriety tests. Then, if a person fails the test and we know alcohol is not the cause of impairment because the person is under 0.08, the individual could be compelled to take the DRE tests. It is already being done, but on a voluntary basis. That is the major change which this new equipment will bring about.

You've also asked why we have not established limits for certain drugs, as we have done for alcohol. You will certainly be hearing from witnesses, experts in the field, but to my knowledge, given the variety of drugs available, scientists do not agree on the quantity needed to cause impairment. We cannot say how many nanograms of marijuana or cocaine are necessary to impair a person's abilities. That is unlike the blood alcohol concentration, which has long been established.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

I would like a specific answer and I will be closing on that, Mr. Chairman.

It is difficult to understand the relationship between the new offence, operating a motor vehicle while in possession of a controlled substance, and the detection of substances which cause impairment. We support this bill in principle, but it must make logical sense. The new offence which will be created seems open to some abuse.

Why would we include this type of offence in the body of the bill?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

First of all, the same tests apply, Monsieur Ménard, in terms of the suspicion of the police officer before he or she pulls that person over and then administers the sobriety test. It's only when that individual has demonstrated there is a problem that we get into it.

I'm sorry, Mr. Yost, would you like to continue?

4:10 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice Canada

Greg Yost

If I've understood correctly, you're referring to the new section 253.1.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

That is correct.