Justice Committee on Nov. 27th, 2007

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I haven't used that term, Mr. Savage.

I can tell you that in terms of your question as to how long a committee...it varies with the committee. You could have a very short bill—

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I'm talking about having a one-day debate on a piece of legislation.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'd have to see the quality of the debate and have a look at it.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

The debate was high quality; I was part of it.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I appreciate, when you get something like the Tackling Violent Crime Act bill, that you can't do it in one day. I appreciate the fact, Mr. Chairman, that we've put about five different bills—

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

My time is up. You can finish.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

But other pieces of legislation? I would certainly hope that they would move very expeditiously through the committee process—

[An hon. member]

Could you define “expeditiously”?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

—and let's get it back into the House of Commons. But as your colleague says, we're not out of the woods yet, just because you get it through the House of Commons. Nobody knows better than me that getting it passed in the House of Commons doesn't mean it becomes the law of this country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Savage, thank you.

Mr. Moore.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister, for appearing here today on the estimates.

There's been a lot of discussion amongst committee members and by you on our government's legislative agenda regarding the criminal justice system.

I guess, Minister, you're in a unique position, because you are able to travel the country quite a bit talking about justice issues. Could you provide the committee with some of the feedback you're hearing from Canadians?

In my province of New Brunswick, in my riding, youth justice—youth crime—is a big issue. The provisions that have been introduced in Bill C-25—I've certainly had an opportunity to hear some feedback from my constituents—are well received. They also feel that it's striking the right balance.

Could you comment a bit on what you're hearing from Canadians, but also on the need for balance? You spoke a bit about preventative measures and helping people get out of a life of crime or of going down the wrong road. I think Bill C-25 strikes that balance. I also think Bill C-26, on tackling the problem we have with drugs in this country, strikes that balance.

So could you comment a bit on what you're hearing, but also on the need for you as a minister to strike the appropriate balance in legislation?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I appreciate all the work you do as parliamentary secretary to the justice minister. I had the privilege of holding that role for approximately four years, and it was one of the best parts of my being a parliamentarian, quite frankly, to be involved with justice legislation. I can tell you, you are doing an outstanding job in that role, and I am very grateful.

Perhaps I could bootleg something in. I want to congratulate you publicly for the birth of your first child, a daughter. I think that's wonderful.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

When you asked what am I hearing across this country, that was one of the things I did hear as well. It's not related to this.

It's interesting in this role that you do hear different things from across this country, and you try to meet with as many people as you can. It's not perfect. You can't get to everybody. For instance, when I go to the major cities, I like to visit the Department of Justice, because I want to thank them for all the work they are doing in their provinces or areas of responsibility. So whenever I'm in one city or another, I ask them if we can possibly do it--I want to do it--because it's a priority for me to get the message to them that all the hard work they are doing across this country on behalf of the people of this country is appreciated. It's appreciated by those of us who are in government.

At the same time, when you're meeting with individuals, people, for instance, in law enforcement, or mayors--that's another group that has asked to see me when I've been across this country--you do see differences across this country. If you even look at the problem of car theft, for instance, in some communities the problem revolves around, most times, young people sometimes suffering from either addictions or fetal alcohol syndrome, from that sort of thing. Individuals are stealing the car and then abandoning the car and stealing another car, whereas in some communities I hear about very sophisticated car-theft rings, chop shops, that kind of thing. Quite frankly, when I hear that, it inspires me to think that we're going to have to bring in more changes in that area. You would know of your colleague, Andrew Scheer, and his work in creating a separate offence for auto theft. He is responding to the concerns he is hearing in his province.

Again, I do hear different things in different parts of the country.

As I say, when I was in Halifax a couple of months ago, I heard loud and clear that they wanted changes to the Youth Criminal Justice Act, and specifically those two outstanding justice ministers whom my colleague, Mr. Savage, just mentioned. Both of them were very clear. They wanted to see changes to the pre-trial detention provisions of the Youth Criminal Justice Act. I told him the truth. I'm only too happy to oblige, and we'll get that and try to move that forward. We'll do what we can to try to build a consensus and to move this through Parliament.

So yes, I hear that when I'm there. On the problems with drugs, I don't think there's anywhere I've been in Canada this past year where people haven't raised with me some concerns with respect to drugs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Moore.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Anyway, the message is clear. Again, thank you very much, and thank you for what you're doing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Moore.

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm a bit concerned, Mr. Chair, about the unwillingness of the minister to give me an answer as to whether cost entered into the consideration on the extradition of Mr. Schreiber. The reason I'm raising this, Mr. Chair, is that across the hallway currently, Rob Walsh, our law clerk and parliamentary counsel, is giving advice to the committee sitting there that this minister, and the Minister of Justice, generally, make this decision in the political arena and not in the judicial arena.

Mr. Minister, I guess I'm putting it to you again. If the decision is in the political arena, for you to take the position that it is inappropriate for you to comment—and I think that's a fair way to characterize your position—on that particular case and to respond to the questions I asked you.... I don't know how you can hold that position when our parliamentary counsel is giving you another opinion, which is that it is in the political arena and that in fact it would not be inappropriate for you to comment publicly, because it is in the political arena. Even though other parts of this case are before the courts, the basic decision as to whether this man should be extradited or kept in Canada is a political decision.

So I'd like to understand your position on that more clearly.

Let me just finish, Mr. Minister. I think it goes beyond that. You're here before the committee, and again, I recognize that when you've come here you have been, with the odd exception, very responsive, whether it was in details or on policy issues. So I guess I don't appreciate your position. I don't mean that in a negative sense. I just do not understand it, and I don't think it's fair to the committee for you to be taking this position when you're getting that opinion from Mr. Walsh.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

My colleague from the Department of Justice, Mr. Don Rennie, has indicated that he is prepared to give you some of the basics with respect to this. Do you want to hear from him?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Rennie, would you make your submission, please?

[Donald Rennie, Barrister and Soliciter, Senior General Counsel, Civil Litigation Section, Department of Justice]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Comartin, basically, when the act or the jurisprudence refers to a political discretion as opposed to.... Then it is no longer under the control of the courts; it is in the hands of the minister. The statute still plays a very big role, and the surrender order must be executed by the minister within 45 days of the judicial decision to commit the fugitive. There is no authority, under the treaty or the act, by which the minister can suspend the execution of that surrender order. If the surrender order is not executed, the fugitive is free to apply for a discharge and the extradition process fails.

There are two limited exceptions to that. The first is where the fugitive is facing outstanding criminal charges in Canada or where there is an appeal with respect to the committal order.

There is some language being used in the media, if I may, with respect to a temporary surrender. It is true that there is a capacity to have a temporary surrender, but that is only when the fugitive is serving a sentence in Canada for a criminal offence.

So while we've not had the benefit of the advice that that committee has received, certainly under what we see as the limited discretion available to the minister under the act, we would want to look at that advice.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

You can have one short question and a reply, a very short one.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You do know that there's a contrary opinion with regard to legislation.