Justice Committee on April 22nd, 2009

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

For one plant.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

--if they are importing drugs for the purposes of trafficking. And that's a determination of the court.

As I indicated, too, if you're speaking with respect to grow-ops, which are specifically identified, you could have a grow-op of 100 plants. You may have sold 95 plants yesterday and have just five plants left. Well, guess what? If you're in the business of trafficking, you're in the business of trafficking.

But I did make it clear that this bill is not directed at possession by the person who grows a plant and who's not in the trafficking business. Again, it would be....

Go ahead.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I respect your opinion on that, but my question is what evidence do you have that mandatory minimums for these drug crimes will actually work, that they're actually deterrents? What evidence is there?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It's been a long time, Ms. Davies, since we've had a number of these mandatory penalties here, but we're absolutely convinced, from our consultation with Canadians, that this is exactly what Canadians want us to do. We want to send out the right--

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Do you have evidence?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

We have the evidence that Canadians have told us that.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Any studies?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

With respect to resources, I can tell you that this bill is welcomed across this country. You can check with the attorneys general, in British Columbia and other jurisdictions here. They want us to take action on drugs--and gangs, admittedly; they want both in there.

So we've introduced both of those, and we've received widespread support at the provincial level. I can assure you that with respect to my colleague, the Minister of Public Safety, the resources are there, and will be there for this and indeed for all the legislation we have introduced to Parliament.

I hope you get behind us. I've got to tell you something: check with your constituents on this.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Oh, I do, regularly.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think the people will say, look, the Conservatives are on the right track.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I take it you have no evidence, though, about mandatory minimums.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You have to send out a strong message to the people who are in the business of destroying these things there.

We have the mandate of the Canadian people--

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

But you have no evidence to offer.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

--and they have told us, Ms. Davies, that this is what they want to see us move on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you, Ms. Davies. Your time is up.

We'll move on to Mr. Rathgeber, for five minutes.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for your attendance today, and thank you for sponsoring Bill C-15. I also do talk to my constituents, and I concur with you, Minister, that not only are they asking for this type of legislation, they're demanding it, and quite strongly, by letter and by phone call and by e-mail.

I do have one specific question with respect to a substance referred to as GHB, colloquially referred to as the family of date-rape drugs. I understand that if Bill C-15 were to become the law, if Parliament sees fit to pass it, this family of substances will become a schedule I substance and will move there from the schedule III list.

I would submit to you and to members of the committee that this change is long overdue. In fact, as I understand this family of substances, they're not normally used by recreational users who are looking for some sort of substance high, but it's quite another matter in terms of those who are in the business of being sexual predators who are attempting to take advantage of another individual for their own sexual gratification.

I think this is a problem that Parliament needs to address. These substances are becoming prevalent in cities such as Edmonton, which I represent. Those involved in organized crime are distributing them. They're quite prevalent in nightclubs and bars in cities such as Edmonton.

Minister, I was hoping you could tell me what the ramifications will be for those who traffic in date-rape drugs such as GHB should we be successful in making Bill C-15 the law through an amendment to the Criminal Code.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think there are some quite serious consequences contained within the legislation. But first of all I have to thank you for your support. You've been very supportive of our tough-on-crime agenda, and not just with this bill--I have to be fair--but right across the board. I know you are in touch with your constituents. They are rightly concerned, and I appreciate that you have brought those concerns to me.

You're quite right that by reclassifying, some of these judges...we bring them within the ambit of what we are trying to do here. As I said to Ms. Davies, we want to send a clear message to people who want to get involved in this, because they're in the business of destroying people's lives. People who are importing narcotics into this country are in the business of destroying people--that's what it's all about--or taking advantage of other people. That is why I make no apologies for the fact that these people can expect to end up in jail if they want to get involved in this activity. We don't want them to get involved in that. I hope nobody would wish that upon anybody else.

I'm pleased that we take a comprehensive approach. The national anti-drug strategy is a perfect example of getting the message out, particularly to young people, to not get involved in this. But we need to have a very clear message, and I don't think people got a clear message. Over the years, in the late 1990s and the early part of this century, somehow they got the message that some of it was okay; you could take it and we wouldn't charge you; and maybe we were going to decriminalize it. That was the wrong message, in my opinion.

We have to be consistent, and this government will be consistent. We will bring in the list of penalties I have indicated. We're after those people who are in the business of trafficking; the people who are in the business of producing these drugs; the people who are in the business of taking advantage of other people; or, as they told me in British Columbia in very clear terms, the gangsters and the gangs that are making a living off this. We have to direct this legislation at them.

You've been supportive of not just this legislation but gang legislation and other pieces of legislation. So again, thank you very much for your concern on that. It has certainly been noted and appreciated by me and all of us in the government.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll move on to Mr. MacAulay. You have five minutes.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister.

I'm interested for sure in what you've had to say. I've been involved in this area for a number of years, and I don't think anybody sitting at these tables would support drug pushers or organized crime. It's a desperate thing to be addicted to any drug. As Minister of Justice, you're responsible for putting the laws in place to pay for the crime, but it's also important to make sure rehabilitation is there.

You indicated in your opening statement that you've travelled across this country and to many places around the world to see prison systems. Well, I have too. It's most unfortunate when someone's addicted. I know you personally, and I know you care.

Number one, will the numbers increase dramatically? Do you have any figures on what you expect to take place? Perhaps Mr. Yost or somebody has those figures or an estimate on that. What will happen when you put more people in the prison system? What types of rehabilitation programs will there be, if any?

You have travelled, and I'm sure you've been in institutions where portions were drug-free--or the whole institution. They're all human beings; unfortunately, they're addicted. But what if they attempt to straighten out their lives or they're given some goals to achieve? Has there been any thought given to that, to give these human beings who are in the system opportunities to change their lives?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Indeed, there's quite a bit of consideration with respect to people who are being incarcerated and getting into the federal penitentiary system. If my colleague, the Minister of Public Safety, was here, he would reiterate what I'm going to tell you. Of course, we want these people to get help; we want them to break their addictions; we want them to have programs available to them. Ultimately, these people are back out on the streets, and we want them to be responsible citizens contributing to Canadian society.

We talked a bit about the drug courts. The drug courts are an attempt to intervene with individuals to get them off this and give them an alternative to going into a correctional facility, because that's what you're looking at. If you continue to abuse drugs, if you continue to get into trafficking, if you continue to get involved with violence, these are all things that lead to a dead end. Two and a half years ago, when I became justice minister, I said I was very interested in the drug courts, because I think they provide an alternative.

Last year, I was very pleased when the Prime Minister announced the national anti-drug strategy in Winnipeg. It contains education components, working with people, working with NGOs. I was pleased to be in Prince Edward Island, and I remember visiting a correctional institute with your attorney general for young people. One of the questions I had was, are they getting help and that sort of thing? He was able to assure me that they're doing everything possible to help these young people, and I was quite impressed by that visit. This is what we have to do.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Is there anything that can be done to see if they can get some help before they go to prison? The majority, or a large percentage, of people in the penal institutions have difficulty with drugs or alcohol. Is there any thought within the justice system to start dealing with this within the institution itself? That way, after they're convicted they would have an opportunity to help themselves. I'm talking about an institution that's drug-free. People who are incarcerated are bright, too. They're able to get around all the systems you put in place, to get drugs into the penal institution. The only way you can fight drugs is to convince the human being that he shouldn't have the drug. That's what I'm asking you.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

As Solicitor General, in charge of the penitentiary systems in this country, Mr. MacAulay, you would know as well as I about all the different programs available in the federal penitentiary system. My colleagues, Stockwell Day and Peter Van Loan, have enhanced the ability of people to get the assistance we want them to get in our penitentiary system. This is what we have to do. I agree with you: we want these people to come out and become productive citizens of this country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Monsieur Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have so many questions I would like to ask you that I wish you were here for another hour or two. I will try to phrase my question very carefully.

Have you signed an agreement with the provinces? The people who will find themselves in jail will not be a problem for you, except those who go into provincial institutions for two years or less. And with your bill, there will be many.

Have you signed an agreement so that people will be able to receive treatment, pursuant to subsclause 5(2) as set out in your bill? If a person wants to undergo treatment, there will be a problem. What is the Quebec Court to do with this person? Are there agreements that provide for treatment programs?

I would now like to talk about the new subclause 3(1) of the bill, which amends section 7 of the act. In case you are not aware of this, Mr. Minister, grow-ops of 200 plants or less are rare. Many young people are growing 10, 15, 20, 25 or 50 plants. From the outset, they are automatically liable to a prison term of six months. What is the solution?

I understand your position. It would appear that you are tabling a bill for serious drug dealers. However, it is not serious drug dealers that worry me, because there are already provisions that apply to them, but the small ones, what we call the small fry. I do not know what the translation services will do with that expression. These are small-time dealers who have 10, 15 or 20 plants, who would be liable to a prison term of six months right off the bat. Currently, provincial prisons offer no services. I know it, because I checked.