Justice Committee on Nov. 4th, 2009

[Don Head]

Yes, we know that most offenders who receive this kind of sentence usually come into the system at around the age of 20 or 21. About 40% come in between the ages of 20 and 39 and they go out at their first release around the age of 44, 45, 46. So they're serving anywhere from 21 to 23, 24 years of a sentence for indeterminate sentences.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I want to be clear on this, because that's contradicting the evidence we already have. You're saying that the time in custody is shorter than it was in 1999 for the average person?

[Don Head]

I'd have to go back to see exactly the framing for the 1999 study, whether that was just those who were serving an indeterminate sentence or just the 745 cases. The information that we've got is for all indeterminate offenders, so everybody. The majority, of course, are murder one and murder two.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So that would include the murder two cases who would have perhaps been given no eligibility for parole until 17 years?

[Don Head]

That's right.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So they would have been eligible for parole at 17.

[Don Head]

Yes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So you don't have the other figure for just those who are subject to the faint hope clause on the 25-year eligibility.

[Don Head]

No, we'd have to go back and do an individual extraction of data, and we just didn't have time to do that when we got the questions posed to us.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Do you have any data as to how many are successful on their first application?

[Don Head]

I can give you how many have been successful. Again, it would have required a manual extraction of data as to whether it was first application or second application.

We know that since 1987 there have been 174, 175 cases that have gone forward, and the reductions that have been granted have been in the order of 144. Of those, 134 have been granted parole by the National Parole Board.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You can't tell us how many on the first application, though?

[Don Head]

No. We tried to go back to see if we could come up with that number as quickly as possible, but it requires us to go back into a file review of every one of the cases to see whether there was one or two applications. There was no simple data collection process for us to just push a button and do that, but we tried to do it and we couldn't come up with a quick system.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm assuming you're not going to be able to answer this next one, but I'm going to pose it anyway because I think before we vote on this we should have this information. Can you tell us how many would have applied a second time, how many a third, and if there were any more than three applications?

[Don Head]

No, that's the problem. We couldn't get that data without doing a full review of the total number of cases that made application. If we had another week or two to do this, we could do a manual pulling of the files, but we couldn't get it in time for this meeting.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Well, at the rate this meeting is going, you may have that time. We'll see what the fight is like when we go to adjourn today. But if we do have that, Mr. Head, I would like that and as many of the answers to these questions as you can get us. I'm pushing hard to put the meeting over final vote on this until a week from Monday. We're not here next week.

You heard Professor Manson's estimation. His analysis is that only 19% apply, and these again are the eligibility only after 25 years in custody. It's somewhere less than 20%. Do you have any reason to agree or disagree with that analysis?

[Don Head]

Just to give you an example, 174 cases have been in front of the courts since 1987. As of today, there are 1,023 cases that are eligible to apply for judicial review. Those are individuals who have served at least 15 years. If I were to break that down even further to those who have not passed their day parole eligibility date, which is three years prior to the full parole date, I have about 236 offenders who were in that situation back in August anyway. But as of today—well, actually a couple of weeks ago—1,023 individuals are eligible to apply for judicial review, and they've already served 15 years past their arrest date.

[Prof. Allan Manson]

That's 18%.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Your math is better than mine, Professor Manson. I would have had to do it manually.

Are those just the ones who have been sentenced to 25 years?

[Don Head]

No, that's everybody. It's 15 to 25.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

On the question of the victims presenting statements, whether writing them or actually attending at the hearings, do you keep any data on that?

[Don Head]

At the courts, no.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Do you know of anybody who does keep data on that?

[Don Head]

I assume they would show up as a victim impact statement at the time of the hearings, so it would be with the courts. Our role at the court is just to provide factual information in terms of the offender's history and participation during his time in our custody, so we don't keep track of any of the administrative processes in the court. We just present our reports, then wait for the outcome, and then respond to that accordingly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Mr. Rathgeber.