Justice Committee on April 29th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Madame Bonsant.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you very much. I am neither a lawyer nor a criminologist, but I would like to know something. When you carry out your studies, do you have these people undergo psychological testing in order to see if they are psychopaths or anything?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

Some of them may have been. As part of our intake assessment process, some offenders are referred for psychological assessments and evaluations. It would be up to the psychologist to determine what tools or instruments they would use, whether it would be the psychopathy checklist or other kinds of instruments.

We didn't go into that level of detail in terms of the psychological evaluations of each one of these cases. I suspect that many of them, for one thing, may not participate in the administration of these things, or may have. But I don't have any knowledge of any research on psychopathy or that kind of research.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

That brings me to my next question. Earlier on, you said that some members of street gangs—let us call them "prison gangs"—have a family and others do not. Are those who do have a family, either a spouse or children, easier to rehabilitate than those who are alone in life?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

In a general sense, for offenders--and I'll couch it by saying pro-social family supports--pro-social family supports are a very significant factor in successful reintegration for offenders.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

All right.

Prisons are more and more often over-populated. Can that be an obstacle or can it slow down the rehabilitation when people are crammed into a prison like sardines? Can that have a psychological effect on the offender?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

The issues of growth in numbers and the size and composition of the prison population can have impacts if the programs and services aren't there.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

That is what I was going to ask you, whether or not there are many prisons who have a shortage of professional staff to guide inmates toward studies in order to complete their education, or towards some trade. Do you feel there is a shortage of professionals in the correctional institutions to help them? At times, it is easier to just jail someone rather than help them, is it not?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

Yes. One of the challenges that corrections will face is recruitment and retention of qualified staff with the skill sets to deliver those kinds of programs and services, and doing so is a challenge even if the resources are there. We know we have a challenge in recruiting forensic psychologists in the correctional systems, because they can work in other systems, depending on their choice of career. We're very actively engaged. Personally, I'm involved in some of that too with the academic institutions, recruiting psychologists and training them, to feed the correctional system and attract them to work in our environments to provide those kinds of services.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chairman? Thank you.

Do your studies deal only with men in prison or have you also done studies on women offenders?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

The study included everybody, both men and women. Women were very underrepresented in the sample, and so were aboriginal offenders.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

We are seeing more and more native women, aboriginal women, in the prisons, and I wanted to know if a study had been done on the subject of women who are poorly represented and who are almost automatically put in jail.

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

There are studies available that profile the federal correctional institutions population, both men and women, in terms of gang membership or involvement in gang activities over and above their convictions for organized crime offences.

I need to reiterate that this study was very focused on only those who were convicted of an organized crime offence. The sample size is very small relative to the broader group, whether that is aboriginal people or women, who may have involvement or affiliations with gangs.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

All right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll go on to Mr. Norlock for five minutes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much for being here, Doctor.

I was just doing some word association as you were giving your evidence, because I find that helps hone down who we are dealing with here. For dealing with the organized criminal, I wrote down some word association. You can comment, vis-à-vis the average person in jail. Then we'll go on to a discussion of that, because some of us belong to public safety and we're engaged in a study of our prisons.

One of the first things, of course, when you deal with organized crime has to do with control. On the outside they have to be people who control--especially their leaders--so I wrote down some word associations, and I'd just like you to confirm that I'm on the right path here: are intelligent, have leadership abilities, are organized--obviously--are knowledgeable, have access to money, and, in and of that, have excellent legal advice and representation. Then when we're dealing with both the crime and the punishment as well as the organization itself, the consequences of disobedience are harsh and/or terminal, especially when you deal with people like bikers.

Would some of those word associations be correct when describing the average person who comes in as part of an organized crime group?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

I would say the first set of terms you used to describe them would be a pretty good description of those who come in and are convicted of an organized crime offence.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Would I be correct in saying that one of the problems we have in Canada's jails, as well as in most of the jails in western countries, has to do with the closing down in the 1970s and 1980s of the so-called mental institutions, meaning that many of the people who fell through the cracks—in other words, who needed the other social services and institutions that might have been of assistance--are ending up in jail? As a matter of fact, according to our preliminary studies—and Mr. Ménard will, I think, agree with me—80% of the folks in jail suffer from some kind of substance abuse and a very high percentage of inmates have some degree of mental issues, whereas individuals involved in organized crime may fall into that but tend not to because they are the purveyors of drugs and prostitutes and those other things, and while they may use the substance, they probably use it recreationally rather than otherwise. Would that be fairly accurate? If not, perhaps you could identify the areas in which it may not be.

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

I think the way you're describing it is pretty consistent with the profile that we did on them, in the sense of the characteristics you describe.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

And now for the cure, because you deal with this more than we do. If you're dealing with a person who's very intelligent, knowledgeable, has access to dollars, etc., and they are very cognizant about what they're doing--they know exactly what they're doing and why they're doing it--rather than with a person who's been deprived, from a socio-economic perspective, the crime should be punished far more severely. In other words, these people are motivated by the Pavlovian sort of psychology. In other words, the incentive is making lots of bucks, but the disincentive is you're going to jail for a long time. Am I heading down the right path, in your opinion?

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

Well, there are consequences for being prosecuted and convicted for these criminal organization offences, and it would appear that they will serve longer sentences. If that's a consequence unto itself and has an impact on whether or not they would desist from further criminal activity, that still needs to be tested out. That's why I would recommend further research on that very matter, because you're talking about consequential learning in a particular sub-population. How will you know?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Well, if they're very intelligent, knowledgeable, and all those other things, and don't fit the profile, then we have to use pretty basic human disincentives, I would think, other than if a person has a problem with regard to some mental illnesses. You really shouldn't, I suppose is the appropriate terminology, use the same disincentives. The socio-disincentive is jail, or the person who's addicted.... However, we're dealing specifically with the smart organized crime person, the person who has those word associations that I attach to them.

I guess the next question is—

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Norlock, you're out of time, so there's no next question.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Okay. I'll save that for next time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

All right. Thank you.

We'll move on to Mr. Murphy.