Justice Committee on June 8th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you. We're at the end of our time.

Monsieur LeBlanc, four minutes.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll be brief. I have two specific questions.

Professor Bala, I thought your presentation was excellent. Certainly I hope the document you left with the committee will inspire a lot of reflection when we get to actually looking at amendments and so on. So thank you for the document you presented.

You didn't have a chance because of time, or at least I didn't hear you, to talk about the mandatory provision for the crown to consider adult sentencing. I'm wondering if you wanted to elaborate on that particular element. It appears, on the face of it, fairly innocuous. It's not directed at the judge; it's directed at the crown, who has to give reasons.

I'm wondering if you could explain why you don't think that is a particularly positive amendment.

[Prof. Nicholas Bala]

Thank you for the opportunity, because I didn't address it.

I think in part it has to do with what we see as the role of Parliament as opposed to the professionals who are implementing the act, whether they're police officers or crowns. What's the message that we want to send to crowns? And then what will be the effect of this kind of provision?

One of the things is that proposed subsection 64(1.1) as worded will be very broad. In other words, there's a very broad range of cases in which the crown will be required to address the issue of adult sentencing. It's much broader I think than anyone would actually contemplate cases where there would be an adult sentence.

I worry that sometimes it is a very difficult decision, and I can't imagine that any crown in the country does not consider inappropriate cases. There may be reasons not to bring the application--they may think their evidence is not strong enough, they may think the youth is amenable to rehabilitation--but that they haven't thought about it is inconceivable to me. So it raises a question about that.

And then I worry that--and they are difficult decisions--they may conclude on balance that it's not appropriate to be seeking an adult sentence. The fact that they're putting it on the record or are required to discuss it in this way may lead to a discussion, with the judge starting to try to interfere or the media making those decisions more difficult. Although you don't have reporting of identifying information, there's non-reporting. You know, why is the crown doing this?

So I think it's inappropriate for Parliament to do this. And indeed they don't do it in any other context. We don't say the crown shall say why they're seeking a summary conviction with adult rather than indictable. We just say of course we rely on the crown to make those decisions.

While I do think the crowns certainly have some responsibility to inform, particularly victims and victims' families, about why they're making decisions, putting this on the record is not an appropriate role for Parliament. I worry that it may well lead to an increase certainly in the number of applications for adult sentences in a way that may not be appropriate.

I think our adult sentencing provisions are largely working quite well. There are some horrific cases, and some young people should have adult-like sentences, and largely do. I worry about this.

I should say, coming back.... It was pointed out that some of the proposals here--for example, about not placing adolescents in adult facilities--are very welcome. So there are some very good parts to this bill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Is it Monsieur Lemay or Monsieur Ménard?

Monsieur Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have a few questions.

Chief Weighill, can you tell me what the population of Saskatoon is?

[Chief Clive Weighill]

Two hundred and fifty thousand.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

And out of this population of 250,000 inhabitants, how many are aboriginal?

[Chief Clive Weighill]

Approximately 20,000.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Concerning the crime rate, what percentage of crimes are committed by aboriginals in the Saskatoon region, according to you?

[Chief Clive Weighill]

The rates would be around 80% for first nations and Métis. Probably 80% of the people who are incarcerated are of first nations or Métis background, a vast overrepresentation.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Those are the statistics on aboriginals.

Would it be possible to send us those statistics? If we are talking about young offenders—and that is what this bill is about—would you say that the percentage is the same?

[Chief Clive Weighill]

No, it's overrepresented in the aboriginal population. It's not the same as—

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

So there are a lot of young aboriginals who are charged with crimes.

[Chief Clive Weighill]

Yes, many more young offenders who are charged come from an aboriginal background.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Fine.

Do you think that the bill as it stands, with the amendments that have been submitted, is adapted to criminality among young aboriginals?

[Chief Clive Weighill]

That's a tough call. In my line of work, I come after the crime has been committed, so we're dealing with the people who have already committed the crime. We have to work with what we face and then try to deal with it. I don't know if there is an answer for that. I really don't know.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Professor Bala, you interest me a great deal. You will probably be on my list of witnesses I would like to see again before the committee. I have a question for you. If you can't answer it right away, I would ask that you think about it.

Do you have any statistics on young aboriginal offenders? Have you done analyses throughout Canada on juvenile criminal justice as it applies to young aboriginals?

[Prof. Nicholas Bala]

I think there is a significant body of research about aboriginal youth and their overrepresentation in the youth justice system. On a national and provincial basis, we have Stats Canada data that breaks it down by aboriginal status in every province and compares the absolute rate with the population-based rate.

Then we have research about individual projects that are intended to respond to young people. We also have work on some of the social factors, like fetal alcohol syndrome, that result in higher rates of youth offending. As with other issues, there's a complex interaction between the social factors and the legal factors.

The Youth Criminal Justice Act specifically refers to aboriginal status. It is something that should be taken into account in sentencing, but this is not always done. For probation officers, there's the so-called Gladue portions of probation reports, which are intended to address this matter. They're not always completed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We're out of time.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Be prepared, because we are going to ask you to come back.

You as well, Mrs. Godin, because I wanted to ask you these same questions.

I am putting your names down on my list.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

I want to thank our witnesses for appearing before us. Your testimony will form part of our deliberations as we move forward with this bill.

I'm going to ask you to clear out of the room fairly quickly because we have another in camera session going on right away.

Professor Bala, you and the Justice officials can stay behind for now.

[Proceedings continue in camera]