Justice Committee on Oct. 19th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Mr. Comartin, you have seven minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister and the officials, for being here.

I just want to follow up on this. I know you're saying you'll designate the organization. Do you know at this point who it is going to be?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I have some pretty good ideas, Mr. Comartin, but until it becomes law and I actually approach the organization, I think it would be appropriate to let it stay at that point.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Let me push it to this degree. It just seems to me it's logical--

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

If you have any suggestions, Mr. Comartin, I'm always glad to have them.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I do. It just seems to me that it has to be the RCMP. I just don't see how this thing can function unless you're thinking of setting up an entirely new agency. I don't know what the difficulty is in saying it's going to be the RCMP.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

There are organizations, for instance Cybertip. Individuals could be designated to receive information that people get with respect to child pornography. But again, that decision would be made once the bill has passed.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

But all they would do is pass it on to the RCMP or other police forces.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Exactly.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

At the time that Bill C-22came before the House there was an article in the Chronicle-Herald by Dean Beeby about the lack of money being spent. Essentially what was happening, Mr. Minister, and I think you're aware of this, was that we were trying to develop software technology that would allow us to search electronically by computers for child pornography sites. It appeared to me that from about 2005 and onwards, there had been some significant developments in that. But there was an evaluation done within the public safety department in 2008, which only became public as a result of this ATI search in 2009, that 40% of the money hadn't been spent in helping develop that and enough officers hadn't been put on it.

I'm just worried if we are going to see a similar pattern once this bill gets through, which obviously it's going to, where we're just not going to move.

A secondary question.... Do you have any idea what is happening with the development of that technology? That's the crucial part of this. Waiting for people to find sites and then report it is not, by far, the most efficient way. Identifying the sites by using the same kind of electronic wherewithal and technology that produces those sites is really the way to go. It seemed to me that we were moving quite dramatically well in that. We've done a lot of this work in our security intelligence services. I'm not quite sure why we haven't been able to get that technology up, running, and available to our police forces.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think there is quite a bit being done. I mentioned the Project Cleanfeed Canada initiative, and I think this is one of the important instruments in cracking down on these sites and getting them cleaned up and getting them blocked from coming into this country.

One of the other areas I am very encouraged in is the considerable international cooperation that takes place between Canada and other countries. I've seen presentations, for instance, by Interpol and others. It's impressive. Canada contributes to all of these. Canadian resources are always available, and I've made it clear in my discussions with our allies that this will continue and that this is a priority for this government and for Canadians in general.

So this is an important part of the initiatives that we have to take to better protect children. And I'm encouraged by your comments that we're going to get this thing passed.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Do you know what state we're at in terms of developing that technology?

Quite frankly, if you would have asked me this in 2007, at around the time this was happening, I would have thought we would have had it by now, given the advances we were making up to that point.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

As far as the exact status of that, I know there are advances by the RCMP, and they're probably better directed toward public safety.

My investigation of this in preparation of this bill was to look at what is being done. I mentioned the Cybertip organization and what is being done in terms of reporting. I mentioned Project Cleanfeed and the cooperation that exists now between Internet service providers.

That's one of the things I made clear. The major Internet service providers do provide this information now. This is an ongoing matter. As I've said before, it's not just a question of it being a good idea; it's the moral thing, the right thing to do. There has to be a legal responsibility. We have as many as 300 Internet service providers, other than the large ones, who already undertake this kind of activity.

We're all moving in the right direction, Mr. Comartin. Again, I'm appreciative and pleased that it looks like you may be prepared to support this bill.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

How much more time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

One and a half minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I know this is going to be hypothetical and you're going to tell me that, but I want to get it on the record anyway.

The reality is we're going to get that technology at some point and we're going to be able to search the whole Internet for child porn sites. That's coming, if it's not very close to being here. Has the department looked at having legislation ready to impose obligations on the service providers to use that technology?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm taking them one step at a time, Mr. Comartin.

I've been involved with pieces of legislation like this on and off for the last 17 years, and it's very difficult to get anything enacted in this country. This is the next positive step in this direction. You get this legislation passed and I will be glad to hear your suggestions for any other legislation you might think we should pass.

It's always a delicate balance when you start talking about what can and cannot be done. There are privacy issues that come into play. Our overriding concern is the protection and well-being of children, to make sure they are protected, and I think this bill strikes the right balance.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Well take back my suggestion that you begin to prepare that legislation.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm always glad to have suggestions from you, Mr. Comartin, on this and on all issues.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm sure you are.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Monsieur Petit. Are you splitting your time?

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Chair, I will split my time with my colleague Brent.

Thank you for joining us today, minister.

I attended the 19th annual meeting of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, which was held from July 6 to 10, 2010, in Oslo, Norway. I had the honour to introduce, on behalf of Canada, a resolution that was the core of Bill C-22. The core I'm talking about is the obligation Internet service providers have to report child pornography on the Internet.

The assembly consists of 57 countries, each of which sends, on average, two parliamentarians to the meeting. The resolution I had the honour to introduce on Canada's behalf was approved by your department. It was submitted to the OSCE's committee that deals with justice issues and was unanimously agreed upon. Then, it was introduced to the 57 member countries of the Parliamentary Assembly, and it was also unanimously adopted.

This resolution was the crux of Bill C-22. At this time, Canada is seen as a leader in this highly technical field. Some countries do not have this kind of technology and find that we are very good leaders in the field.

People who accompanied me, especially Bloc Québécois and Liberal members, helped us with the presentation. I would like to thank you, minister, personally, and especially on behalf of the children. They are the ones we must protect. I thank you for your support. I have noticed that throughout your career, you have fought relentlessly to protect the children.

I will now give my colleague Brent the opportunity to ask questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Rathgaber--or did you want to respond, Mr. Nicholson?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'd be pleased to respond to Monsieur Petit.

Monsieur Petit, thank you for your kind words, but I want to congratulate you. I was aware of and followed your efforts in that regard. I want you to know that they're very much appreciated. And I believe they're appreciated outside of this country, because part of the challenge we have is to make sure we get everyone on board with these issues.

In my conversations with my counterparts at the Organization of the American States meeting earlier this year and at the last Commonwealth justice ministers meeting I attended, this was one of the issues they asked about. They wanted to make sure they had laws on the books that addressed these concerns and that the laws were up to date. Because that is the challenge we have. The technology changes very quickly. The sophistication of these crimes is changing all the time. Our job and our responsibility is to make sure that we are continuously involved in the fight to protect children.

Again, it's not just a Canadian problem or an American problem or a British problem. These are problems that transcend international boundaries. To the extent we work with other countries to do this, we're moving in the right direction. This is why I was particularly pleased that your resolution has been so widely accepted. Again, I thank you for your efforts in this regard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Rathgeber, you have just under three and a half minutes left.