Justice Committee on Feb. 16th, 2012

[C/Supt Michel Aubin]

I fully agree with you.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

The question is, is it useful?

[C/Supt Michel Aubin]

The definition that we try to apply is exactly that; it's to get away from those three persons getting together and running a string of break and enters at a bunch of cottages and then they get away. It's really organizations—three or more—that get together and do it not on a random basis but on a continuing basis, and it has to be for the benefit of the organization, not for one person. So it's a strict application.

Quite candidly, have we applied it perfectly? The answer is no. Law enforcement is learning to work together more and more. We're becoming more and more specific.

Going into 2012, the fact that we have all 10 provinces participating is indicative in itself.

The issue of having to rely on an antiquated database is also a reality with which we have to deal. The database does not work with current technology, not the record management systems of the law enforcement services or the major case management systems. In fact, it requires agencies to do a manual upload. It can't even accept current versions of certain software, so Adobe version 2010 has to be downgraded to version 2003 to be uploaded and read. It's the challenge we face right now, and we have to use some workarounds to try to get the best picture we can.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Thank you.

Superintendent Slinn, I think the problem we ran into was in a previous Parliament with a different committee. That was the public safety committee that the document got sent to, and this is the justice committee. So if you can just send it to justice, we'll be happy.

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming today. I did have a chance to read chapter 3 of the federal witness protection program report that you refer to, and I did notice a couple of things in the report. In particular, it seems that.... You mentioned that the total cost of the program was how much per year?

[Supt Eric Slinn]

About $7 million or $8 million.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

That must include the cost of the RCMP officers. Is that correct?

[Supt Eric Slinn]

Yes, that's all built in.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

In 2005-06 the program itself was about $2 million, which is the most recent data. It seems to indicate that in 1996-97, admissions were 152, whereas in 2005-06 they're 66. So there's quite a drop over that 10-year period. Indeed, voluntary terminations were four in 1996-97, and 21 in 2005-06.

It appears to me that a lot of people are not taking advantage of the program. Is that fair to say, or the trend is certainly moving that way?

[Supt Eric Slinn]

Statistics sometimes can be misleading. There may be a host of reasons. Because of the level of violence organized crime is using, there may be a sense of security...that maybe the police can't protect them as well as they could. Then there are the networks that organized crime have to try to track down these witnesses. There's more awareness, I think.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I understand.

In fact, wouldn't it be fair to say that most of the issues arise out of British Columbia right now? Is that fair? Most of the complaints came out of British Columbia, over 50% during that period of time, from 1996 to 2007.

[Supt Eric Slinn]

There are a number in British Columbia, but there are protectees from other areas of the country.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I just meant the complaints, as far as the witness protection program is concerned.

[Supt Eric Slinn]

No, there are some complaints in Ontario, I believe.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Yes, there were. But over 50% were in B.C., and I would suggest most of those would be drug-related complaints, or people who are involved in the drug trade with organized crime.

[Supt Eric Slinn]

I think that's probably fairly accurate.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I play hockey, and what I'm most interested in with hockey is not the practice, but winning the game. I look at organized crime the same way. It surprised me to find out that there is such a low probability of conviction with organized crime, and primarily that's a result of sneaky lawyers—like I used to be, I guess. Lawyers in particular are using strategies that are not advantageous to anyone except their clients. I understand as well that it takes a significant amount of time and days for trials to be run, and there are two particular things—to define what organized crime is and whether or not that person is part of that organized crime.

I had a chance to go through the report, but what it seemed to indicate to me to be the best thing to do is to change some of the strategies around the criminal trial process to make sure we get more convictions, and use the resources more efficiently to get those convictions.

Would that be a fair comment?

[Supt Eric Slinn]

A more efficient system would always be welcome. There are frustrations expressed by law enforcement with the system in investigating organized crime, as there are amongst prosecutors.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I agree, and in fact—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

On a point of order, I realize it's very interesting, and not only to Mr. Jean, but we're really talking about the witness protection program today and getting updates on that. This is what we're here for, and I think this is what we should be confined to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

I think it goes to the whole point of the study, so I think it's appropriate.

Carry on, Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I understand where Mr. Harris is coming from, but my interest is actually in seeing safer streets, and organized crime is one of the main—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I have no objection to that. That's a pejorative remark, totally uncalled for.

We brought the witnesses back to talk about the witness protection program. You have now been ruled in order. You're not the only one who cares about safer streets.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thanks for that clarification, Mr. Harris.

One of the things that became clear to me in reading the report is that a significant amount of time is spent defining what a criminal organization is and whether or not the person belongs to that criminal organization. In fact, I discovered that probably three-fifths of the time was spent doing that during the trial process. Are you familiar with that?

I see Mr. Aubin is shaking his head affirmatively.

[Supt Eric Slinn]

Mr. Aubin was involved in a large organized crime investigation in Quebec, so he has some knowledge there.

I will say that there is a lot of investigative effort to prove that the person belongs to that organization, is acting for the benefit of, at the direction of, or in association with it. We have to prove the hierarchy of that organization and where the person fits in there.

So there's significant investigative work that has to go on there. Whether or not it happens at the trial process, I couldn't comment on.