Evidence of meeting #21 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gaming.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Harness racing is a significant industry in Prince Edward Island, and the biggest track is in my riding.
Should the people in the harness racing industry have concerns over this new option available for the gambling dollar?
11:40 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gaming Association
No. The sports book may well be offered at the racetrack there in P.E.I.
Nothing changes with respect to the laws regarding wagering on horse racing. This allows you simply to bet on who is going to win the game tonight without having to pick two or three other winners.
February 16th, 2012 / 11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
Thank you to all of you for being here to assist us this morning.
I do generally believe in regulation in this industry over allowing those in organized crime and others to profit and benefit. I've had occasion in my past life to actually testify before the Nevada Gaming Commission on behalf of a client. It was an interesting exercise, and their level of scrutiny is remarkable—something we don't really hear a lot about here in Canada.
What I'm wondering, Mr. Comartin, is whether you have canvassed the provinces on this. Have provinces spoken up—perhaps the other witnesses know this—on their support or non-support for your bill?
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
It would be better for the others to comment.
We know...and in fact we have letters from the Ontario and B.C. governments directly to the Minister of Justice requesting this amendment. They are formally on record.
I would turn over the balance, because Paul or Bill would be better positioned to talk about the interaction they have had with the other provinces.
11:40 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gaming Association
We've spoken with the lottery corporations and/or the ministers responsible for gaming in each and every province. No one has indicated to us that they're opposed to this.
There were one or two provinces a couple of years ago that had some misgivings. They wondered what was going to happen if people started betting on peewee hockey games and things like that. It's pretty easy to allay those fears. Those bets just aren't offered. I mean, the only way a peewee hockey game has a bet is if two dads are having a coffee, watching their kids play.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
11:45 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gaming Association
You can't regulate that.
11:45 a.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, Canadian Gaming Association
We have been told that there are letters from the governments in Alberta and Saskatchewan requesting this change and in support of it, and other provinces have been working through processes, we've heard. Lottery corporations obviously have been very much in favour. In terms of official correspondence, it's British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Ontario at this point.
The previous government in Nova Scotia had written early on as well, but the current government in Nova Scotia has not, as of yet, but is considering.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
I'm from British Columbia, but I'm wondering if every province and region of Canada—and I'm thinking of the northern territories as well—has a lottery corporation-type regulation. Or are there differences throughout the country?
11:45 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gaming Association
Each province chooses to administer and regulate gaming in an individual fashion.
There are different operating models, and there are different regulatory regimes from province to province. For example, in Quebec, Loto-Québec operates all aspects of gaming. Civil servants will clean the washroom facilities and deal the cards.
In Ontario, you have OLG overseeing private sector companies that operate the major casinos, and OLG directly operates the smaller properties. In British Columbia, your province, private sector companies build the facilities and operate them on behalf of BCLC, with BCLC oversight, with revenue-sharing arrangements.
In Saskatchewan, for example, there is a crown agency that operates two casinos, and there is a first nations organization that operates six casinos.
The short answer is that each province is different. There is a regulatory process in place in each and every jurisdiction, and there is a crown agency charged with conducting and managing gaming on behalf of its provincial government.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd also like to thank the witnesses and my colleague Joe Comartin.
As Mr. Harris said, we support this bill. In any case, I'm from a province, Quebec, as you just said, Mr. Rutsey, where gambling is highly regulated by Loto-Québec. That means that there isn't much room for organized crime, even though the criminal organizations still find a way to be present. I'm not the kind of person who thinks that setting up this type of system makes it possible to resolve every problem related to organized crime. But, I obviously agree that it takes away some of their resources.
I'd like to ask a question that Mr. Comartin might be able to answer. The single-event betting that you spoke about, would that also extend to the UFC, for example? We know that there are provisions other than those in the Criminal Code that prohibit it. I don't think this would go that far, but I would like confirmation on that.
Would the scope of your bill cover that?
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Madam Boivin, it really depends on what happens in the provinces. Yes, it's possible to place bets on fights organized by the UFC.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC
They won't be considered prize fights, which are banned under the Criminal Code?
11:45 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gaming Association
No. You'd be able to bet. If Loto-Québec, in your case, decided to make those bets available, then those bets would be available. It's up to each province to decide what it wants and doesn't want to offer.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC
That's the other aspect of the bill that I'm pleased about. It's that we are legalizing something that was considered criminal by allowing the provinces to determine whether they want to go ahead with all this. As Mr. Harris said, gambling may or may not be a problem in some provinces, depending on how they manage it.
I'm from Gatineau, a region with a magnificent casino. Still, there were some societal issues with regard to compulsive gambling. However, I'm very proud to see that, in Quebec, we are investing a lot in education. But that doesn't solve all the problems. I don't want to suggest that it does.
I don't remember whether it was Mr. Rutsey or Mr. Burns who talked about the odds. You said that the odds are better for a player who places a bet on a single event. I don't have any trouble understanding this principle, mathematically speaking. Could you compare this type of betting with others? Since we have some insiders here, we could get an idea of how to benefit from better odds and on what we should—
11:50 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gaming Association
Well, I'm no tout, but I can tell you that currently in Canada if you want to bet on sports, you've got to pick the winners of three different events. So it's like buying a lottery ticket. It’s pretty hard—the outcome of one event is...but you've got to pick three—
11:50 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gaming Association
It's hard. The lottery corporations make about a 40% margin on that business, so it's really not a very good game for the customers. That's why the overall amount of legal sports betting in Canada has plateaued at a sort of modest $450 million—is it, Paul?—a year, as opposed to the billions of dollars wagered on single events. There, about 95% of the amount bet gets returned to the bettors because their proposition bet was correct. So if you're interested in the outcome of a game—and it makes it more interesting for you if you've got a couple of dollars on the line—then this is the one product that people want and choose and pursue.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have just a couple of questions. I'm sure that your actuaries or forecasters have forecast the amount of money that could be generated from this kind of activity in Canada, or particularly in Ontario. Could you tell us what that would be?
11:50 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gaming Association
That's very hard. As we said, there's approximately $10 billion worth. When people are trying to determine illegal activities, the best estimate is about $10 billion overall and an additional $4 billion online. The law changes, and now it's legal to...that doesn't mean all of that economic activity is going to come above ground, for a whole host of reasons. One, a province might decide not to offer the product. Two, they'll only decide to offer the product in casinos. It would still be easier for someone to pick up the phone and call their bookie than it would be to get in the car and drive down the highway to see Niagara Falls.
