Justice Committee on Oct. 25th, 2012

[Christopher Ducharme]

I had a meeting with Minister Toews back in March. One thing we discussed was the lack of discussion around what victims need. I'm learning policies in government so bear with me, but do we have a victims bill pertaining to this? Maybe we need a corresponding V-37 that focuses on where the money is. It's like a transaction; you have money coming in; you have money going out. Sorry, but I work at Scotiabank.

We're starting to see victims bills. In the U.K. there are huge changes right now, some of it based on restorative justice, which we're not talking about here. We are seeing it in New Zealand and the United States as well. There are changes looking at what victims need.

One thing that comes to mind is that probably most victim service workers in some provinces are volunteers. Some provinces have paid full- and part-time staff. There may be consistency there. In the case of a murder, the first three to six months is a stage of shock. They deal with the homicide investigators the first couple of weeks, and then they're passed on to the victim service worker. That involvement might last three to six months, but victim service workers can't keep a case file that long. I had to go back to them 15 years later. There's no mandated time that victims can work with them, but it seems a lot shorter than the victims actually need.

That's why I'd like to see three stages. The homicide investigators, and in Vancouver we have IHIT, the Integrated Homicide Investigation Team, have a victim liaison. Then the victim would go to the victim service workers for another three to six months. It should be mandated and not vague because the victims don't understand what's going on. After that the victims would be referred to the bereavement programs, such as the BC Bereavement Helpline, to get them engaged in an eight-week series of support groups and monthly drop-in groups, as they wish. A lot of them are quite willing and interested in doing that. The response rate is huge because there's no support out there.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Françoise Boivin]

Thank you, Mr. Seeback.

Mr. Jacob, go ahead.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I appreciate Ms. Harvey's and Mr. Ducharme's being here this afternoon to share their stories with us. I realize that you don't get any warning, you don't choose to be a victim.

Ms. Harvey, you talked about the hole that is left in your soul and the need to rebuild your life from scratch. The work you both do with your associations is indispensable. Victims indeed experience post-traumatic stress. They have to put their lives back together emotionally and financially. Running a victim support association is very expensive. Some victims endure long trials at tremendous expense, running up huge legal bills.

As I have said, the NDP supports victims of crime and their families; we agree with the recommendations made by the ombudsman for victims. However, I am not convinced that Bill C-37 makes it possible to access the funding needed. We need to shore up the victims fund and enhance support for victim programming.

Like the three witnesses who appeared before you, you talked about the enormous costs involved. It's not possible, of course, to replace the loved who has been lost, but it is often necessary to replace lost income. On top of that, there are funeral expenses, counselling costs and cleaning bills. No doubt, I'm forgetting some.

Do you belive it's important to make sure the funding does indeed go to victims?

[Yvonne Harvey]

What was the question?

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Do you feel it's important to make sure the funding really goes to victims and doesn't get lost in the system?

[Yvonne Harvey]

Then what's the purpose of having victim services? That's why we have victim services. We're not asking for money. That's not what we're asking for. We're asking for help.

I get referrals from police departments, not just in Ontario but in other parts of the country, to talk with survivors of homicide victims, because there's no specialized treatment. People have the support of the court and support while the investigation is going on, but what happens after? We need to have ongoing support.

Our organization is called Canadian Parents of Murdered Children and Survivors of Homicide Victims because we are not defined by the crime perpetrated on us. We're survivors. All we're saying is that we're here, and we're asking to have the surcharge increased—which is not a whole lot—and put into victim services so they have the money to hire the people, the specialists. As I say, I pay $175. It's not a psychologist that I need. I need a specialist in post-traumatic stress. How else is it going to be available to everyone? What an administrative nightmare to try to figure out, that one person deserves this, and another person deserves that.

No. It's services that we need. We're not looking for you to cut us a cheque.

I hope that answers your question.

[Christopher Ducharme]

I would echo that as well.

When I first heard about Bill C-37, I was borderline reluctant to come here because it seemed to focus on just the funds, the money. That's not why I am here. I am here because I want to know where that money is going That's all that matters to me.

I think it's great that we have this establishment so it's coming from the offenders.

To get back to the other question about the list, I know it's a bit off topic, but if I have a murder case and there's $200, and you have something else, and I don't know the scale, but I would support a sliding scale.

I think it's great that we're getting some funds from the offenders. The Department of Justice victims fund is an amazing thing, but it's not sustainable funding. We can only apply for one year at a time right now. It used to be three years or five years.

It is hard to run an organization when you're serving victims. They are the most vulnerable people out there. It's very hard if you have to tell them you don't know if there's going to be a group in a couple of months.

I want to talk about the cost effectiveness of that too. The going rate for individual counselling is $170 an hour, but for $170 you could have two facilitators do a lot more work than that and multiple people would benefit.

I'm sorry if I come across as pushing the support groups, but it's what Canada is asking for. I was a national spokesperson for National Victims of Crime Awareness Week last year. Everybody at the conference, every province, stood up and said they want to support groups. That's all I need to say. I really need to stress that.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Françoise Boivin]

Thank you, Mr. Jacob.

Ms. Findlay, go ahead.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

I guess that segues into my next question. I think anyone who has suffered personal trauma knows, and others can recognize, that the recovery is not a straight line to good health. It's a long road and it's very uneven. At times you cope and at times you don't cope. Perhaps even in moments like this, when you're called to testify before a group and share your personal story, it's hard to keep one's emotions in check, as determined as you are.

I am interested in comments from both of you personally in terms of your own recovery but also in terms of the groups you represent, about the need on an ongoing basis, and the length of time one needs to give victims the support that they need.

Either one can start.

[Yvonne Harvey]

The people I deal with, some people have been bereaved for 20 years, 18 years, 12 years. They're not any further ahead than they were back when the child was killed or other loved one was killed. Granted I am talking about homicide.

When there is a murder, there is always an element of trauma attached to that. I have learned, not only intellectually but personally, that if you don't deal with that trauma, you can't move through the grieving process. That grieving process then becomes grief upon grief upon grief and then you're faced with complicated grief. What we're promoting in this organization is we want to help people to find a sense of purpose and hope, and trust again to re-engage in their communities with that sense of hope and purpose.

We are responsible people. We are working people. We are taxpayers. We are law-abiding people. Sometimes it's very hard. Some people lose their jobs because emotionally they just collapse.

Our job is to try to create a support mechanism where we can help these people. I should mention that when Chris mentioned about having a facilitator who could facilitate a trauma group of maybe half a dozen or a dozen people, that's a wonderful concept. In fact, that's what we've been talking about over the last year. How can we do this? How can we get the funds to start a trauma group for homicide victims?

I know that they have one in B.C.—

[Christopher Ducharme]

They have five now.

[Yvonne Harvey]

They have five in B.C. We don't have anything here. We don't have anything in other parts of the country. We need to address this now. If we don't deal with it now, I'll be calling in 20 years' time because my life will still be unmanageable. I'll still be unhappy. I still won't be taking any joy in the things that I should be enjoying. That's what victims' services is for. We need them now. We need to address the problem now so that we can, for the want of a better explanation, accept and move forward.

Many people don't do that, unfortunately, and it has a far-reaching effect. It reaches the families, the siblings, the spouses.

[Christopher Ducharme]

I can speak to that as well.

The BC Bereavement Helpline had 37,000 callers in the last 25 years. It's their 25-year anniversary this year. Jo-Ann is a past president of the helpline; it would be nice if she were here to testify about this. The majority of the calls we get at the helpline are from people who haven't really resolved their grief. They haven't talked about it or shared it. Just having someone to listen and to talk to, I put a lot of focus on that. Talking sounds so simple. We always try to come up with scientific ways to treat people. It's not even about treating. It's about treating them like people.

If these victims of all types of crimes don't have something they can fall back on, they turn to alcohol and drugs to deal with the unresolved grief. The other bills, those that give people time off work, are great. However, if they don't have the support coupled with that and they don't have somewhere to get help, they're going to spend the money they get on alcohol or drugs. I'm not speaking for everybody, but a natural tendency for someone who's grieving is to fall back on things that are unhealthy, unless they have support in place.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Françoise Boivin]

Thank you all for meeting with us today.

The discussion could have gone on for hours; we can only benefit from hearing what you have to say. Beyond the laws, there are people to whom they apply and they are intended to help people. As lawmakers, we play a complementary role. Not only must we enact laws, but we must also make sure those laws have a positive effect on your daily lives, on your work as victims advocates.

Tuesday, we are scheduled to hear from the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime. We will continue our study of Bill C-37.

Thank you.

Meeting adjourned.