Justice Committee on Nov. 1st, 2011

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for your attendance and evidence here this morning.

My questions will be confined to you, Mr. Chepesiuk. I had the benefit of reading your brief last night, because you were kind enough to post it on your website. I took a look at some of the other postings there. Quite candidly, I'm a little concerned about what I read. Hopefully you can help me square a couple of circles.

I read--I think it was in your brief--that your organization believes that young people, youth and students, ought to be encouraged to make their own decisions concerning their physical and mental health. I take it that's a policy statement of yours?

[Caleb Chepesiuk]

Yes.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

But I also read that your organization believes that drugs are a health issue, not a criminal issue.

[Caleb Chepesiuk]

Yes, we believe drugs should be dealt with as a matter of public health, with a fringe of the criminal justice system.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

People can't generally make decisions about their ailments; they can make decisions concerning their treatment. But if drugs are in fact a health issue, and if the focus ought to be on addiction, square that circle for me.

People can't choose whether or not they're going to become addicted, and you suggest they ought to be able to make up their own minds concerning their physical and mental choices.

[Caleb Chepesiuk]

People cannot choose to be addicted. I agree with that.

What our organization is about is empowering young people through education—through honest education—about the realities of substance uses. It's pretty clear when you look at the facts of drug use that it is dangerous and scary, but this does not mean we're always listened to. Young people have shown throughout the years that despite valiant efforts to keep them from using certain drugs, some of them will continue to do so.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Right. But you'll agree with me that some people have a predisposition towards addiction, so this is not purely a matter of choice.

Would you agree with that?

[Caleb Chepesiuk]

I'm not totally up on the science, but I know there's a mix of social and chemical and biological and--

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay, now I want to take that to the next degree, regarding MDMA, or what's colloquially known as ecstasy.

You said in your opening comments that the penalty provisions of this proposed legislation are greater than any harm caused by the drug itself. Did I hear that correctly?

[Caleb Chepesiuk]

Yes, if you look at studies on the harms of substance use...CSSDP has presented about the ranking of the harms of drugs in previous submissions on this legislation.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I live in Edmonton, Alberta. I don't suppose the names Cassandra Williams, Leah House, or Trinity Bird mean anything to you?

[Caleb Chepesiuk]

I believe...but you can fill me in on the story.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

In the spring of 2009, in two separate incidents, Cassandra Williams, aged 14, Leah House, aged 14, and Trinity Bird, aged 15, all overdosed from ecstasy and died.

I would challenge your proposition that the penalty provisions of this bill are greater than the harm caused by the drug itself. I wonder if you have any comment on that.

[Caleb Chepesiuk]

Sure. I don't know the details of that case. I don't know if they overdosed from one pill of ecstasy or from several pills. This is something we worded very carefully in the statement to read that “one pill”, because based on studies of substances and ingestion--

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

But you know how MDMA works. You know that it causes a sense of euphoria because it increases blood pressure, correct?

[Caleb Chepesiuk]

As far as I know, yes.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Also, because these drugs are generally made in home laboratories, there's no precise recipe. They differ from vendor to vendor and from manufacturer to manufacturer. You'll agree with that.

[Caleb Chepesiuk]

Yes, and this is a problem that we're concerned with. Part of what we push for is that young people, if they are going to make this choice.... Again, this gets into the fact that we can't make choices for our young people, but there needs to be more education about those facts and abilities for young people to--

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

This drug will increase the blood pressure until a blood vessel bursts. I think I read that on your website.

[Caleb Chepesiuk]

You'd have to show me the source.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

And do you know what happens when a blood vessel bursts in the brain? You hemorrhage and die.

So I seriously challenge your proposition that the penalty provisions are greater than the harm caused.

I have a final question, if I have another minute.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

You have 30 seconds.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay.

You talk about diversion employment being removed by this bill. If you've read it, you'll no doubt be familiar with subclause 43(2), which expands the role of drug treatment courts.

At the very least, would you agree that's a positive advantage of this bill and that it allows people to possibly not get minimum mandatory sentences if they deal with their addiction?

[Caleb Chepesiuk]

Sure. And just in response to the last comment on the previous question, those situations are incredibly serious to us. We have lots of members who get involved because of similar situations. What we're arguing is that this legislation will do nothing to prevent those situations in the future.

With drug treatment courts, it is going to be a positive thing for some people, but we're concerned about the lack of courts across Canada, the lack of accessibility that people will have to this. Also, there are various requirements, such as having to qualify as having an addiction. For people who do, they will qualify for that program, but for many young people who this might—

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Sorry, your time is up.

Mr. Cotler.