Justice Committee on Nov. 1st, 2011

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My question is for Ms. Vandergrift. It has to do with the international Convention on the Rights of the Child. My understanding with regard to that international treaty is it has been ratified by more states than almost any other treaty. Indeed, I recall that it was ratified more quickly by more states than any other treaty, so there is a particular compellability with regard to this international treaty and with regard to the obligations we have assumed under that treaty.

If the legislation is not amended and stays as is, and our performance under that treaty will then be reviewed by the treaty monitoring body, what would be your appreciation of what the nature of that review would be and its result?

[Kathy Vandergrift]

Thank you.

In 2003 Canada received recommendations to review its youth justice committee to better comply with the convention. There has not been a response to those recommendations. Going back again, I'm sure there will be further investigation and recommendations by the committee.

I am also concerned about what it does to Canada's reputation in terms of promoting human rights. If we don't live up to these conventions, we can't go into other countries and ask other people to live up to them. Canada was a leader in children's rights, and I'm very concerned that we are losing that leadership by eroding the way we violate the convention at home.

I would add that protecting children's rights and protecting the public fit together. It isn't just a matter of the convention. It is that this makes sense for youth justice.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I will put a follow-up question to you, if I may. It has been suggested that this legislation, while introducing new mandatory minimums and enhancing existing mandatory minimums, does not apply to young people.

However, if one looks at the legislation, whether it be the drug-related offences or the offences with regard to children, it would appear that the mandatory minimums and their consequential effect would apply to young people and therefore might engage in the application of disproportionate and unjust sentences, as other briefs have suggested.

Would you be able to respond to that?

If you wish, Mr. Chepesiuk, you can respond to that as well, if time permits.

[Kathy Vandergrift]

That is the kind of question that a thorough impact assessment on how this legislation compares to the rights in the convention would show you. That's why I'm saying all MPs should have that kind of assessment before them before they pass this bill. I think that is the best place to take that detailed assessment.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Chepesiuk, do you want to respond to that?

[Caleb Chepesiuk]

I think that covers it. With this I believe the provisions that will make changes to the CDSA will apply to people 18 and older, but when we talk about incarcerating people, these might also be people's parents and stuff, so there is also an indirect impact on young people through this.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Wamback.

[Joe Wamback]

Well, I'm personally very frustrated when I hear cries about the rights of the child, and yet I find that those voices remain deafeningly silent when they talk about the rights of child victims. We need to have a greater balance in this country.

Canada does not comply with the UN convention on the rights of victims, nor on the rights of child victims. A lot more research has to go into the way the Youth Criminal Justice Act treats young people who violate Canada's laws. We treat them with dispatch. We suggest to them, by the way we treat them, that breaking Canada's rules and society's rules, breaking the law, is acceptable behaviour.

I encourage every member of this panel and the witnesses to look at the current investigative report that is being undertaken by David Bruser of the Toronto Star on the Youth Criminal Justice Act and youth courts in the city of Toronto. It is not only eye-opening, it is something we have been saying for over ten years. It is now available for everybody to see.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Thank you, Mr. Cotler. Your time is up.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Chair, I've been following that series in the Toronto Star that Mr. Wamback has referred to.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Mr. Woodworth.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to welcome the witnesses and thank them.

Just before I enter into any questions, I want to clarify a couple of points that have arisen thus far.

There was a concern expressed by a witness that we not rush the provisions, particularly relating to young offenders, without consideration. So that no one listening is misled, I wanted to mention that in the previous Parliament there were in fact 16 meetings of the justice committee dealing with those provisions, with dozens of witnesses, and the Minister of Justice had representatives monitoring all of that evidence and considering it. In addition, of course, there are the meetings that we're having in this Parliament, which stretch over roughly three months, and also dozens of witnesses.

I want to also mention the question of mandatory minimum penalties. In fact, section 39 of the existing act has exactly the reverse presumption, that judges not put young people in jail unless certain circumstances are fulfilled, and that, in my view, is completely supportive of what the Attorney General for Quebec mentioned earlier. There is no provision for a minimum mandatory penalty regarding a young person.

Mr. Wamback, I particularly welcome you back. I've been on committee when you've appeared before, and I do appreciate, always, when witnesses who have experienced loss come to committee. I know it isn't an easy thing to have to think about those things, but it's very important for us.

In particular, I understand, Mr. Wamback, that you at one point prepared a petition calling for anyone charged with a violent crime to be tried in an adult court. It referred to the case of Clayton McGloan, a 17-year-old Calgarian who died from multiple stab wounds after being attacked on Halloween night in 1998, and also Dimitri Baranovski, 15 years old, kicked to death in a Toronto park. In both those cases the individuals charged were under 18.

Am I right that you did do that?

[Joe Wamback]

Yes, I did.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I understand, too, that the idea for that petition came to you as you were actually in a hospital corridor wondering about the fate of your son Jonathan. I know it is a bit difficult, but tell us, if you would, about your experience. how it led you to come to that idea, and how it relates specifically to the provisions in Bill C-10 that specifically you support.

[Joe Wamback]

Thank you.

On young offenders legislation, I think Bill C-10 is a start. It certainly isn't where I would like to see it. I would like to see it be more proactive. I would like to see greater emphasis placed on early intervention for those children who are at risk.

We have the tools today to identify those individuals. We just don't have the will, the political will, to make the decisions to direct these individuals into leading a productive life.

That petition that I created while my son was severely hurt was signed by 1.3 million Canadians, Canadians who are frustrated that they cannot do anything, that the law will not support them, that our government will not support them and their child, when their child is victimized by someone under the age of 18.

Those people who hurt my son--the day after they hurt my son, they were back in school. They were back in school with a bigger badge of courage than they had before they hurt my son, because now they were bragging about what they did. That's actually how they were caught.

The ultimate sanction, after $4.5 million of taxpayers' money and almost four years of legal arguments, was a five-and-a-half-month sentence.

The individuals who did this, and I can't name them because they're convicted under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, continued to victimize and hurt other young people while they were out on bail. And when they were rearrested, they threw a credit card at the justice of the peace.

That's the kind of respect young people who are predisposed to violent behaviour have for the justice system of this country.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Do you think the crown attorney should have an obligation to at least consider making an application for an adult sentence for a young person in all cases where the young person has committed a serious violent offence?

[Joe Wamback]

For serious violent offence, and especially repeat serious violent offence, without question; I think the sanctions currently imposed under the YCJA for that type of crime does absolutely nothing to teach the balance of young people that there are consequences for that kind of behaviour. It does nothing to protect the average Canadian and their family from extremely violent predators and psychopaths.

You're born a psychopath. You don't become one when you hit 35. We have to be able to deal with that. If that means longer periods of incarceration and greater rehabilitative efforts, then so be it. That should be a priority. The priority should be protection of our families and our children.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Thank you.

Mr. Jacob.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

My question is for Ms. Kathy Vandergrift.

In your brief on Bill C-4, which is the basis for much of Bill C-10, you point to the fact that Canada has signed and ratified the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Children.

Could you address the principles set out in the Convention and tell us whether they are included in Part 4 of Bill C-10?

[Kathy Vandergrift]

One of the core principles I mentioned is that the best interests of the child be taken into consideration, and that is not incorporated into Bill C-10 and the youth criminal justice system.

Article 40 of the convention deals specifically with penal justice for persons under the age of 18. It is our submission that Bill C-10 violates article 40.

Article 37 deals with detention to be only as a last resort. We argue that Bill C-10 violates that.

Article 39 argues for helping persons who are victims. As has been mentioned here, we certainly agree with early intervention. That's what the convention would support. But that's not what this bill is going to lead us to. This bill is going to lead to more young people being detained for longer periods of time on a serious crime, and we know that jails do not usually lead to rehabilitation of young people.

So age-appropriate accountability is a core principle of children's rights, and that's what we want to see: age-appropriate accountability.

Does that answer your question?

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Yes, thank you very much.

How much time do I have left? Four minutes, if I am not mistaken?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

You have three minutes left.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I will share the rest of my time with Ms. Charmaine Borg.

[Charmaine Borg, NDP, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

My question is for Ms. Vandergrift.

In a previous answer on longer prison sentences for young offenders, you stated that prisons are not necessarily the best place to rehabilitate young people. One of the other witnesses also said that prisons can sometimes be crime schools. I think that there is some truth in that statement. Young people released from jail are more likely to take up a life of crime.

Could you comment on this idea?

[Kathy Vandergrift]

That is what the research shows.

I do understand the concern that some young people may need secure facilities, but those can be facilities other than we have in our jails. If you look at the evaluation that was done across the country of the application of the current act, the plea was for a wider range of good programming to deal with young people.

There's a study in B.C. that 50% of the young people who came into the criminal justice system there were part of the child welfare system. So we need to deal with a whole range of matters regarding these young people. That's what the plea is of people who work with them across the country. Just changing the law isn't going to address that.

That's why our plea is to focus on implementing what we have now, and then evaluating it thoroughly and looking at adjustments.