Justice Committee on Dec. 10th, 2013

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

It is tax free for first nations people.

[Michael Perley]

Yes, it is, according to an allocation system.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Okay, great.

I want to go through section 121.1(1) of the amendments to the Criminal Code:

No person shall sell, offer for sale, transport, deliver, distribute or have in their possession for the purpose of sale, a tobacco product....

You guys have read this. Basically, we cover growers who are knowingly selling or being part of it. We have distributors, processors, transporters, anybody who sells. One thing that seems to be absent is the buyer. Do either of you have a perspective on that?

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

The buyer is clearly the driver of the business. For us it becomes a resource issue. How do you address every buyer and where are you most effective? I spoke earlier about deploying your resources to where you're going to have the most impact. We go where the smuggler is, where it's entering. That's what we target the most. Our focus has been on the smuggler and the entry.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

I'm going to move on and talk about something that my colleague Mr. Wilks brought up at a previous meeting. In respect of conspiracy charges and other charges that can be bolted on, we know that there are typical offences for break-and-enter with intent, and we have hit-and-runs causing bodily harm. You can add charges on. There's nothing in here about trading, either. So it's hard to prove a conspiracy. But when you start trading these products, that might be an easier thing to lay a charge on.

Mr. Couture, do you have any insight into that from the OPP's perspective?

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

I'll have to research that a little bit. It's not something I considered. You're suggesting trading for—?

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Yes.

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

That's a good point. I apologize, I haven't really considered that.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

No worries.

You mentioned in your testimony, Mr. Couture, that the smugglers are using some very aggressive tactics. I've heard stories and I know what those stories are. Could you give this committee an indication of how aggressive and how intimidating some of the tactics are?

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

I need to go back to 2009 and to my involvement in that respect.

With regard to the aggressiveness of their tactics, as you said, it was private property, private docks, at any time of day. Regardless of whether the owner was there or not, they were doing their business, they were unloading, they were moving on. That's how aggressive it was.

On the operational piece, we were on the highways, on Highway 401, etc.—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Are they armed when they're coming across in boats?

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

No. I don't want to go down that road.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Okay.

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

We were constantly in vehicle pursuits with smugglers. There was almost a daily incident going on in the eastern part of the region. We were in marine pursuits and incidents. I just told you about the incident that took place a couple of weeks ago.

Those types of activities were very prevalent. It was aggressive to that extent. Our response was a regional task force, project-targeted. We even went out and did community consultations and had discussions about where and how, etc. Those pieces have been greatly reduced for us in the last couple of years. We're not seeing that type of aggressiveness. Now it's more on the waterways.

As I said earlier, unfortunately I'm not naive enough to believe we've stopped it. I believe it has just moved to other locations. I have spoken to our Quebec friends in that respect.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Are the penalties that are currently proposed in Bill C-10 commensurate with the risks a police officer would have to take in order to pursue an individual for these charges?

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

In terms of the penalties in this piece of legislation, I believe it's a step forward. It's a tool. To what extent it will be effective, etc., in the realm of everything else that we utilize now, I do believe it's a start.

But again, as many have said, it can't just be about enforcement. It has to be education, proactive, etc. Everybody needs to be engaged on this, even to the extent.... We often talk about the first nations, that partnership, and I believe Ontario is going down the right road there in trying to build stronger relationships around the tobacco issue. It's complex.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

This is your last question, Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Okay.

I can go to the grocery store, buy a pound of ground beef, and trace that back to some farm, wherever it happens to be, if something is wrong with that package of beef.

Now, I know that the Government of Quebec has implemented some type of traceability mechanism in their growing. Where is Ontario at with this? Can we trace back tobacco? How well can we trace it back to an individual grower and through that whole distribution channel?

[Michael Perley]

I think we'll have a better opportunity to do that when the raw leaf regulations are in place, because most, if not all, of the tobacco that's grown in Ontario goes south of the border to be processed and then comes back into Ontario or back elsewhere to be made into actual cigarettes. There's a complex chain of transport.

Right now, if I have a pack of du Maurier that I bought in downtown Toronto, I am almost certain you could not trace back the tobacco in that cigarette to the individual farm. I don't think you could do that now. You may be able to have a better shot at doing that after January 2015, when the raw leaf regulations come in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much.

From the New Democratic Party, Madame Péclet.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning.

My first question goes to Mr. Couture.

In its 2012 annual report on contraband tobacco and other illicit goods, the Ontario Provincial Police mentioned that highway 401 is the busiest transportation route in eastern Ontario. It is therefore the police's major concern.

Does that mean that the preferred means of transportation used by traffickers is by road? Which other tools will Bill C-10 give you to help you in the fight against contraband?

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

In our opinion, highway 401 is the main corridor for distributing contraband goods. You have heard a lot about the Akwesasne area. The vast majority of the products move in that region. Highway 401 becomes a main route. We conduct a lot of operations on the highway, on the border with Quebec and in the Cornwall region. We have had a lot of success there.

We also have a team working in the area around Brockville, Leeds and Gananoque. We make some incredible seizures every week, either contraband goods or drugs.

This proposed act will give us more tools. It will allow our officers to act differently. Now that it will be considered a criminal offence, they will be able to investigate further than they can at the moment any time they pull someone over. At the moment, provincial law does not allow us to become involved unless we have probable cause. With the bill, they will have more power along those lines. Now that it will be considered a criminal offence, there may be arrests.

I feel that it is a good tool. However, it complements all the other things we do. I repeat that we must not think that the bill will be the solution to the problem. Basically, it is another tool.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

The previous witnesses submitted a document that quotes a report from the ministère des Finances et de l'Économie in Quebec. It says:

Following a rapid growth in smuggling between 2004 and 2007, the government has succeeded, with the ACCES Tabac program, in reducing the market share of contraband products from 30% to 15%, similar to the level observed at the beginning of the decade.

That is a drop of 50%.

I understand that you are the Ontario Provincial Police and it is fine if you cannot answer my question, but do you have an idea of the tools that program has to fight contraband? I am struggling a little here.

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

I will be struggling with my answer too.

We work with the Sûreté du Québec a lot. They are a great partner. We do not just have partners in Ontario; we do a lot of work with Quebec. As I understand it, the province has new laws that have helped the Sûreté du Québec to do their job. They have an impressive team. They have 20 or 30 officers working just on the other side of the border with Ontario. They have had a lot of success. Our team in the Cornwall area talks with those officers on a daily basis in a spirit of partnership. It is very positive.

In any event, the tools that have given them success are provincial.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Perley, I see you nodding head in your agreement.

Perhaps you have something to add to this?