Justice Committee on Dec. 10th, 2013

[Michael Perley]

Exactly. As François Damphousse mentioned earlier, it's the local groupings of officers who work between municipal...and the Sûreté du Québec, together, that we don't have in Ontario. So apart from the larger population and all that, we don't have the same kinds of locally active groups of officers.

Now, I don't want to say that the OPP and municipal police don't cooperate. They absolutely do, particularly in eastern Ontario, as Gary has mentioned. But what we don't have is the same authority to seize product when it's found as Quebec does. In Bill 50—I think it was the number, if I'm not mistaken—there was additional authority given to Quebec law enforcement to seize product. As Gary mentioned, Bill 186 in Ontario allows officers to seize, and the key phrase is “in plain view”. So if I'm carrying a carton of contraband that I bought somewhere on the seat of my car—

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

So those are all provincial initiatives.

[Michael Perley]

Provincial initiatives, that's right—

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Those are not federal initiatives?

[Michael Perley]

Not federal, no. There's just one thing I should add, which is the federal government has promised repeatedly to add 50 RCMP officers. I hope that happens very soon. That will be very much a good complement to Bill C-10, to add those additional 50 RCMP officers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions.

The next questioner is Monsieur Goguen from the Conservative Party.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for testifying.

My question goes to Chief Superintendent Couture.

Among our previous witnesses, we had chiefs from the reserves near the border. They all expressed the same concern: they were afraid that the bill would adversely affect their young people.

Does this bill specifically target organized crime rather than individuals? How does organized crime bring violence into communities, whether on reserves or elsewhere?

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

Let me make sure I understood the question. You are saying that the federal act will have an effect on our young people because there is a danger of them being charged. Is that correct?

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Chiefs on the reserves are afraid that the bill is targeting young people on the reserves and affecting them adversely. I am inclined to believe that the target of the bill is organized crime rather than individuals, whether or not they are on a reserve.

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

I will go back to what I said a few minutes ago. We are not focusing on the kids, but on the source, on those responsible for the smuggling and the distribution. We are not looking for kids buying a pack of cigarettes or whatever.

I work in a region where we collaborate with aboriginal committees. I fully understand the importance of that relationship. I would not want the bill to be interpreted like that. It is a federal bill that amends the Criminal Code and that will help us in our work. We have a certain amount of resources and we have to use them where they will do the most good. I do not think we have to go after the kids. Everyone must contribute to the fight against smuggling because our young people's health is important. Other organizations should also contribute to that.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Nothing targets young people directly. You are looking for the source of the problem and, in many cases, that is organized crime, isn't it?

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

Exactly.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you.

This panel and previous panels have talked about Ontario legislation, raw leaf legislation. It's hard enough to keep up with all the federal legislation. I realize it's not proclaimed, but could you expound on that a little bit? The other thing that came to mind is that the natives have obviously sought the traditional uses for their tobacco. Would this legislation in any way help distinguish...?

[Michael Perley]

Going back to the 1994 Ontario Tobacco Control Act, tobacco use for ceremonial or spiritual purpose has always been exempted and is not targeted, or intended to be targeted, by any of these bills.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

How is that tracked? Is it possible to track it?

[Michael Perley]

It isn't.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

It's impossible.

[Michael Perley]

That is left aside. The first nations people make very clear distinctions between what they call commercial tobacco, which is what we're talking about, and raw leaf tobacco, which is used strictly in smudging and other ceremonial settings. It's a very, very small quantity, compared to the amount we're talking about. It's left to the first nations to look after that. That's the simple answer to the use for spiritual purpose.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Faced with the prospect of having to distinguish ceremonial tobacco from commercial tobacco—

[Michael Perley]

In terms of the regulations, we're talking about tobacco that's grown under licence and as a result of having a contract with a tobacco company. It's under licence by a farmer, who can demonstrate that he or she has a contract with a properly licensed and registered tobacco company. That product is the raw leaf that's going to tracked under the raw leaf management system regulations under Bill C-186.

In a nutshell, I'm the farmer; I grow my crop; I package it or prepare it for shipment; I have to mark that shipment and register it, and people from the ministry of revenue and finance can track that. They have to be able to track exactly where it goes, that it goes to the right place. It won't entirely eliminate the leakage into the contraband system, but it will make it much more difficult for anyone to supply any part of the illegal market.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Another arrow in the quiver.

[Michael Perley]

Yes, precisely, just as Bill C-10 is.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Jacob, I think you're sharing your time, right?

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Yes, I am going to share my time with Mrs. Sellah.

My first and only question goes to Gary Couture.

Over the years, have the smugglers managed to figure out and get around your surveillance methods? How do you think they will react to Bill C-10? To what extent can they evade police forces?

[C/Supt Gary Couture]

Thank you for the question, sir.

In the last five years, in the Cornwall region, we have noticed that they have figured them out a lot.

They are very innovative.

They have changed their means of transportation. I wish I had brought photos to show you, because it is really incredible. The vehicles, the boats, the sleds and the snowmobiles have been modified to conceal the contraband they contain. They are very creative. It is a matter of economics for them. There is a potential profit, so they invest.

What will the consequences of the federal act be? I think it is good tool, as I said earlier. Internally, we have absolutely never focused on the kids. But we have discussed the fact that it will eventually be a criminal offence. Will that lead to more dangerous chases and more violence? We do not know. But the risk for the smuggler will be greater. So it will be a good tool, but I cannot tell you exactly what consequences or reaction it will have. I am sure that there will be some.