Justice Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2013

[Gary Grant]

I'm not able to answer that. What I can tell you—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Do you know when you'll be able to answer that?

[Gary Grant]

What I will tell you is that the coalition is funded by its members, as I said, but it's on the public record.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I understand that, but do you know when you'll be able to answer that question?

[Gary Grant]

No, I do not. I'm not involved in the—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Don't you think you could do it in a day or two?

[Gary Grant]

I'm not involved. I'd have to talk to the coalition because I'm a paid spokesperson—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Why would that be difficult?

[Gary Grant]

I don't know.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Neither do I. I would have thought that your coalition would know quite easily what its budget is and what this contribution....

So if we could get an undertaking, Chair, from the witness, I'll leave it there.

I know you to be an honourable man, and I'm sure you could answer that question if that information is—

[Gary Grant]

I would just add that the funding is on the public record and on file with the Ontario lobbyists registry.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Then it is a public document and the disaggregation would be relatively easy.

I'll just take note of that.

Thank you, Chair.

Finally, my question is for Mr. Cha. You are generally supportive of this bill.

[Don Cha]

Yes, sir.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Who knows if it's going to be effective or whether it isn't. How is this bill actually going to impact the folks selling contraband cigarettes outside of one of your members' stores and actually have a real and measurable impact on that? How's that going to work?

[Don Cha]

Let me put it this way. Right now the people do not know that buying the contraband tobacco helps crime and is illegal. It's illegal, but I don't think the general public knows that.

So if it's put in the Criminal Code, the general public—people who aren't involved in government, people who aren't involved in this—will know it's a criminal offence. They will think twice before they get involved in trafficking.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

That's your time. I'm sorry. Thank you very much for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner, from the Conservative Party is Mr. Dechert.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to each of our panellists for being here this morning.

I have to say that when I first heard about the issue of contraband tobacco, given that I'm from a place like Mississauga, a very urban city and part of the greater Toronto area, at least 100 kilometres away from the nearest smoke shack, it didn't seem like an issue that impacted much on my community. But I had a meeting with some constituents of mine one day who came to see me and told me that they had gone to the area around the Erindale Secondary School in my riding, and had picked up hundreds of cigarette butts. They had done the analysis and showed that a huge percentage of them were actually contraband tobacco cigarettes.

Of course, we all are very concerned about young people getting started on tobacco and becoming addicted to nicotine and the health effects of that, and we spend a lot of time, as a government and as a society, trying to convince young people not to have that first cigarette, not to start down that path. I have lots of friends who, like Madam Boivin, have struggled with kicking the habit. It is so difficult once you have started, especially when you start young.

A couple of summers ago, I was in a convenience store in Mississauga and I just happened to notice a truck pull up with a number of young people who were working on some kind of landscaping crew. Some of them went into the sandwich shop next door, and one young man came into the convenience store. I didn't know the owner, and he didn't know me. I just happened to be in there as a shopper, and I noticed the young fellow, who could have been 15 or 17. He walked up to the counter and asked to buy some cigarettes. The convenience store owner, to his credit, asked him for identification, and the young fellow was obviously surprised that he was being asked for ID and made some excuse about how he didn't have his ID with him. To the credit of the convenience store owner, he didn't sell him the tobacco product.

I'm not saying it happens that way in every circumstance, but that is one line of defence against getting young people started. That's something that the vendors of contraband tobacco are not doing. They already know they're doing something illegal, so they're not asking young people if they are old enough to be taking that first smoke.

I have to say I was impressed by that.

I want to address my questions primarily to Mr. Don Cha and Mr. Grant about, first of all, the health impact of these illegal cigarettes on young people and the ease of accessibility.

Also, you said something, Mr. Don Cha, that I thought was very interesting. You talked about your store owner members being the kind of people who work hard and play by the rules. They see others doing something obviously illegal and not paying a penalty for that, and it diminishes your owners' faith in the justice system.

A lot of our justice legislation is trying to restore people's faith in the Canadian justice system. When we see people getting away with offences and not paying a penalty, not being brought to justice, how does that make your store owners feel?

Maybe I could start with you, and then we'll go to Mr. Grant.

[Don Cha]

How does it make our store owners...?

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

How does it make the store owners feel about the Canadian justice system when they see these illegal cigarettes being sold near their shops?

[Don Cha]

All we sell are legal products. We pay the taxes and we do everything by the law, whatever that permits. We are providing services to the community.

For legal tobacco, especially legal tobacco, because we are doing such a good job, and we are trying to be responsible retailers, we are educating our members to not sell to minors. If anybody looks under 25, we ask questions first. That's what we publish and we tell them.

They're doing such a good job that minors are turning around and going into the illegal market where nobody asks any questions. We sell regulated products, which means they are under the scrutiny of government regulations and health regulations. Illegal tobaccos are not. Somebody was asking if something was feasible, was possible, was right. We do not know. We don't have an answer. It could pose a much bigger health threat and it costs much more money to the government as well.

That being said, because we are selling legal products we make a profit from them and that's how we float our business. It's just like any other business: if you do not have a cash flow the business goes under. That's why we try to diversify and sell flowers in the summer to make ends meet.

When the customer comes in with illegal products in their purse and we see that we start getting mad. Why are they doing this? We are selling legal products. Why are my regular customers coming into the store with illegal products in their pockets? I feel sorry because they are not buying the products anymore because they are buying cheaper.

We have a newsletter going out twice a month. We send out a pricing comparison for smoke shops. They start at $9 and go up to $32 maximum. The government tax is over $45 right there.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you.

May I ask something else?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Your time is way over, Mr. Dechert. If you can put your questions before your comments it would be helpful, because it's all the same time.

Our next questioner is from the New Democratic Party, Mr. Jacob.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here with us this morning.

I would like each of you to tell me who your financial backer is, that is, who pays you to represent your organization.

Let us start with Ms. Doucas.

[Flory Doucas]

Our coalition is an initiative of the Public Health Association of Quebec. It is funded in its entirety by this association. It receives funding from the Quebec Department of Health, Public Health Branches, and its members.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Doucas.

What about you, Mr. Cha?