National Defence Committee on Sept. 20th, 2006

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Yes.

[Dr. Sean Maloney]

They've seen this before. In fact, they've seen worse before. Remember, the Soviet Union killed two million people there over a 10-year period. They're used to high levels of violence. What we're doing is relatively minor compared to the historical experience, which is passed on, by the way, through oral tradition in the various communities.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Surely you're not saying that they're okay with this because they're used to it.

[Dr. Sean Maloney]

Actually, yes. When I've talked to them....

Remember, we're dealing with a completely different culture from urban Canada. We're dealing with something that is so radically different you actually have to be there and encounter and talk to these people. I have made great attempts to do this when I've been there, because it's so easy to sit with our guys and just see what our guys are doing. I have gone out with the Afghan security police and the Afghan National Army, and I have hung around in some of the villages and talked to people specifically about the Soviet period. I'm really interested in this as a historian. I have asked what they think about what we're doing here. They say, “This is nothing. You should have seen the Soviets when they napalmed an entire village or used chemical warfare or whatever. We can handle this, we've seen this before.”

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

That is contrary to what I heard from the young woman, a member of Parliament from Afghanistan. That's certainly not her point of view.

[Dr. Sean Maloney]

That's fine. Everybody is entitled to their point of view. I've talked to a lot of people who--

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

I'm just saying that I can't quite believe that people could be quite that cavalier about being bombed and killed.

Anyway, Pakistan is my last question.

[Dr. Sean Maloney]

Pakistan. The main issue here is what we're looking at when we look at Pakistan. Are we looking at a unified country? Are we looking at a nearly failed state? Are we looking at a nearly failed state with nuclear weapons?

Balujistan especially, which is right across the border from Kandahar, has had an insurgency going on for decades. However, we have not put the pressure on Pakistan that is needed, in my opinion, to start shoving things down in there. We can explore the specifics behind that with an expert on Pakistan. But in this case--

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Do you think we'll ever be able to, though? Is there really hope that we'll be able to, given all the problems in Pakistan itself?

[Dr. Sean Maloney]

I think so, because they were able to operate fairly effectively with Waziristan, and they shut a lot of stuff down in Waziristan. I think the will is lacking right now; I think we need to put a lot of pressure on Pakistan to deal with this. I think it can be done.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Will we be able to do that?

[Dr. Sean Maloney]

That may be beyond the confines of this mission. But I think it can happen, which leads me to a further point. When you look at Afghanistan, you have to look at it as a regional situation. You can't just look at it as a single country.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Yes, I agree.

My final question is a very quick one, and it's about--

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

A little question now, because the buzzer just went.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Did it? Okay.

It's about the opium production, because--

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

That's going to take a little bit too long, I think, unless there is a quick response.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

It's just that General Evraire gave us figures from the last time, since ISAF has been there, but the opium production has been going on since Operation Enduring Freedom was there, and Canadians were there under Operation Enduring Freedom. So I'm not sure that it's fair to start your numbers in the last six weeks when the Canadians entered under ISAF.

[LGen Richard Evraire]

You have a point there.

Indeed, Mr. Chairman, the fact remains, though, that there is a trend up north. There was an improvement up north because of the presence, basically, of the forces, originally of Operation Enduring Freedom and later NATO. But I guess the best way we could look at it is to be optimistic; there was a trend, and we can only hope that it will also obtain in the south.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

Thank you.

Mr. Hiebert, the floor is yours, sir.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you.

First of all, I would like to extend my appreciation to all three of our guests for making an appearance before this committee today.

I have a follow-up question for Mr. Maloney, but first of all, I have a question for Lieutenant-General Evraire, and possibly Colonel MacDonald, if you'd like to comment as well.

As you know, the leader of the NDP recently demanded that Canada remove our troops from Afghanistan. I'm wondering if you could tell me what effect that would have on the morale for our troops and, specifically, if such statements place our front-line troops at any greater security risk?

[LGen Richard Evraire]

Thank you for that question.

Mr. Chairman, I think it's been reported fairly widely that one of the things the Canadian Forces would dearly like to continue to have from Canada is support for the mission they're doing there. Indications that there isn't overwhelming support would have some impact.

I have to add, though, and I'm sure Mr. Maloney would corroborate this comment, that the soldiers on the ground are really quite focused on what exactly is going on operationally over there. Although they do have information coming to them from Canada, their focus is entirely on preparing for the next mission. It might upset them to some degree, but I don't think it would really have a serious impact on the morale of the troops, who I think we recognize are imbued with a very high morale.

When you look at the most recent unfortunate incident, with the loss of four soldiers, a number of soldiers who were interviewed following that incident, soldiers who were very good friends and acquaintances of those who were killed, indicated that they were even more interested in making sure the mission succeeded. I don't think as a consequence that we would say the morale was in any way diminished.

I think it's very normal for any group operating outside our borders, particularly on this sort of mission, to hope that everybody back home is applauding their efforts. I think it would simply be reasonable to limit the reaction to being one of disappointment, as opposed to any impact on morale per se.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, John Cannis]

Colonal MacDonald, would you like to respond to that?

[Col Brian MacDonald]

When you look at the military, I think you're dealing with a very distinct social organization, and the individuals, in terms of morale, depend heavily upon each other because they're dependent on each other for their lives. The intimacy of that social relationship is far more profound than anything we can find in civilian life. In that sense, what is most critical to their morale is the folks around them.

Characteristically, according to the comments of people who return, they are also very conscious of the moral imperative of what they are doing. They see the need for the people of Afghanistan; they see a destroyed state, a state that is showing some signs of revival but is still an enormously fragile state. They see it every day, and in that sense they are tremendously directed to the idea that the mission be achieved, which is the stabilization of a fragile country to allow reconstruction to take place. The impact of the withdrawal of Canadian Forces on the troops would be that sense of having abandoned a critically important mission that is so important to the people of Afghanistan and the world, and the feelings they would have of almost being betrayed by the people who had decided to withdraw those forces.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

My second half of the first question was what impact this would have on the security situation. Do the Taliban monitor the international comments made by political leaders? Do they understand the impact this will have on troop morale, or commitments on the part of particular governments?

[Col Brian MacDonald]

Well, the answer to the second half of the question is, of course they do.

The answer to the first half of the question is that if we withdrew the Canadian battle group from the brigade in the south, it would make the position of the rest of the brigade perhaps untenable, because in Kandahar we sit on a line of communications that supplies the British battle group in Helmand province. The entire brigade is composed of some of our closest historic allies--the Brits, the Danes, the Dutch, the Australians--people who have been the closest to us over many years. As a consequence, the possibility exists that this would have a devastating impact on our reputation.