National Defence Committee on Nov. 20th, 2006

[LGen Andrew Leslie]

The current command and control architecture of our soldiers, your soldiers, in Afghanistan, as I know and has been alluded to by General Howard and General Gauthier.... Brigadier General Tim Grant is the Canadian national commander, and his headquarters works for Dutch two-star headquarters, which in turn works for an ISAF headquarters, which is run now by a British four-star, which reports back to a German four-star in Brunssum, which in turn reports to SACEUR. You might say that that sounds like a lot of headquarters, and you'd be absolutely right.

At every level of those headquarters, there's a series of strategic review teams continually looking at what they're doing at every level and seeing how they can do it better, faster, smarter. Where it gets extraordinarily complicated is when it leaves the military domain of NATO and goes into the political domain. Of course, all soldiers, sailors, and airmen in NATO work for their political leadership.

Sir, I would not presume to try to guess when such a review, either accepted or endorsed by all the NATO members, on the future of Afghanistan might be forthcoming. Trying to achieve consensus on this delicate and complicated task is going to be extraordinarily interesting. That's levels above me. At times, indeed often--always--I'm very glad to be a soldier, because that one will be really tough to try to resolve.

I haven't answered your question.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Well, I suppose you answered it as far as you could. The Americans are quite public with their re-evaluation, with the whole world now thinking that it's not going very well there, and they need an exit strategy, and they need the cooperation of Iraq's neighbours in order to solve that problem. I was just wondering if we were looking at the same sort of scenario with Afghanistan, or if NATO is looking at the same sort of scenario with Afghanistan's neighbours. Would they be taking a larger role in that country, and would we be taking a lesser role?

[LGen Andrew Leslie]

Sir, Afghanistan's six neighbours—you mentioned three, China, Pakistan, and Iran, which are arguably the most influential—are playing a role. In many instances, as a result of some of the Rome discussions and indeed the St. Petersburg accords, they deliberately excluded themselves, recused themselves from discussions on internal security issues of the Afghan people. President Karzai, with whom I discussed these issues several years ago, is more than capable of providing supplementals to a variety of the discussions and nuances involved in some of the debates.

You asked about those three and whether or not they were assisting in the reconstruction efforts of Afghanistan. The answer is yes. China has actually been very generous in donating funds, engineers, and expertise on part of the ring road that connects Herat and Kandahar, up through Kabul to Jalalabad. They've also been intimately involved in some of the large irrigation projects and the hydroelectric dam facilities.

Though Pakistani engineers themselves only rarely go into Afghanistan, Pakistan has funded a significant number of reconstruction projects.

Iran has actually been very generous in its support to the Hazara community, those located within the central massif of the Hindu Kush. The northern neighbours, Uzbekistan,Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan, have been less so, at least to my knowledge.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Good. Thank you very much.

Ms. Gallant, and then Mr. Bouchard.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Congratulations, General, on the role you've played in planning and training the finest soldiers in the world, a feat even more remarkable given the rust-out of the Canadian Forces after about a decade of neglect by the former government.

Providing our troops with the equipment they need is well under way, so my questions have more to do with caring for our troops. As you know, the tempo has been high, particularly with 2 Brigade. This base is also experiencing tremendous growth with the standing up of the Canadian Special Operations Regiment, filling in the hollowed-out regiments, and hopefully, the relocation of JTF 2.

This is setting the stage for even more pressures on the medical-related services and infrastructure. Recognizing that CFB Petawawa was potentially going to be phased out in the mid-1990s, we're now left with a number of World War II-era buildings. When this committee travelled to the base last month, we saw how a burst line had caused a major cave-in just a short distance from a rail line. A few more metres and it would have cost the military $1 million a day. There is a cost in waiting to upgrade infrastructure. It can really carry a hefty price.

The base clinic, where soldiers are treated, is losing its functionality. That's not even mentioning the scarcity of mental health practitioners. They now have a medical clinic in one area and a mental health clinic in another.

Over the course of our constituency week, as Laurie did, I had the opportunity to speak with soldiers, and one soldier in particular who had been shot in the head while in Afghanistan. Our soldiers did hear their stories over Remembrance Day. This brave young man related how he never lost consciousness, and that when he was shot, he knew at that moment that he had lost his sight in one eye, but all he could think about was whether they would keep him in the military or kick him out. This soldier has found out that with treatment he is going to stay in. He said that his treatment was among the finest, and he cannot praise enough the doctors who worked on him.

In Edmonton, when I met with soldiers injured in Afghanistan, their overarching concern was having enough time to heal so that they could return to full active duty.

The bottleneck, particularly at base Petawawa, appears to be in the shortage of personnel selection officers. As you know, the BPSOs not only do the post-deployment assessments to pre-handle problems like post-traumatic stress syndrome, but they also conduct aptitude tests for the special forces etc., a very necessary component in force generation. Force generation is one of the two co-objectives of the Canadian Forces right now. With back-to-back rotations, the lone BPSO right now at Petawawa is really unable to process the backlog in the caseload in a timely fashion.

General, I'm asking for your commitment. Now that you have an idea of what these on-the-ground problems are that you may not have heard about, I'm asking you to see that those under your command who are responsible for putting the proper people in place to care for our soldiers and those responsible for maintaining base infrastructure do not fall any further behind and thereby prevent a future crisis from ensuing. We need adequate funding directed to these areas.

[LGen Andrew Leslie]

Ma'am, as usual, you are more than adequately briefed on the requirements of the base in your riding. I happen to agree with all of your comments.

We will be taking a hard look at the numbers of PSOs.

The medical staff issue is systemic, though. Unfortunately, I cannot look you or any other members of the committee in the eye and tell you that we have a short-term solution to the numbers of medical folk serving in the armed forces. Those we do have do extraordinary work, and they're saving lives daily overseas and indeed also at home, but the shortfall still exists.

We are very eager to get more doctors. I know there are several doctors on this committee. We're very eager to get more doctors joining the forces.

With regard to the age of some of our infrastructure, as you know, a lot of it was built 50 or 60 years ago. Most buildings of that age require a lot of care and attention.

Ma'am, I will give you my attestation that I will look into these issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Bouchard, and then Mr. Blaney.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Lieutenant-General Leslie.

Parliament has authorized the extension of the Canadian Forces' mission in Afghanistan until 2009. You stated that this was a priority for the Canadian Forces.

Are the Canadian Forces working on plans for post-2009?

[LGen Andrew Leslie]

My responsibility is to provide the necessary personnel for operations, whether that be in Afghanistan or here, in Canada. We have plans that are spread over 20 years. Every six months, we train a battalion group made up of 1,500 to 2,500 soldiers. Do we have any plans that

extended past 2009

for Afghanistan? No, not yet. We are following the Government of Canada's orders.

At this moment, we have not been told of anything past 2009--not a word.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you.

You also talked about a lack of personnel and the need to increase the number of soldiers in the Canadian Forces. I believe I even understood that this was an emergency situation, in terms of current recruitment.

Are all your units currently full in terms of personnel? If not, are all necessary measures being taken to reach your recruitment goals?

[LGen Andrew Leslie]

The current recruitment system is adequate for the purposes of filling units that are not quite full. We have to recruit 3,000 to 5,000 soldiers over the next two to four years.

The good news is that we will have enough financial resources to recruit 3,000, 4,000 or even 5,000 soldiers, but we must have systems for training these people and for ensuring that they will be sufficiently equipped and trained to go into dangerous areas, to provide security during the Olympic Games, etc.

I am confident everything that can be done is being done. But it doesn't address the fact that the army right now can do that which it was told to do, but it's tough. Now, you have a lot of people who come before you in committees and say their jobs are tough. I like my job, but it's a tough one, because with the domestic responsibilities, the growth responsibilities and implications, and committing ourselves to international operations of the scale and intensity of that which we're doing, it's very complicated.

Do I think we can do it? Yes. But it requires the growth to happen as planned and it requires a certain degree of stability across the Canadian Forces and the army.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

You stated that some units are not quite full. Are they, for example, 75% full?

[LGen Andrew Leslie]

Sir, we currently have approximately 13,000 soldiers on the ground. I am talking about soldiers in combat, in theatres of operations. We also have 7,000 soldiers within the army's institution, who are on our bases and within our training system. We have enough soldiers for auxiliary operations, but we need to increase the number of soldiers for domestic or international theatres of operations. I can't talk about percentages, because members of a group of combatants are in units of 12. If you want a straight number, I would say approximately 75%, but that is a rather simplistic number and

it doesn't describe the true complexity of some of the issues we're dealing with.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Very good. Thank you.

Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This is the first time that I sit on the Standing Committee on National Defence, and it is also the first time that I have the opportunity to participate in a meeting with a general. I take this opportunity to thank him for ensuring our security. On November 10, I also thanked a citizen from Saint-Michel-de-Bellechasse who had earned the Canadian Peacekeeping Medal for his two rounds in Cyprus during the mission that lasted 29 years. It was a moving ceremony.

I was with you when 71 soldiers from Quebec left for Afghanistan, but a large deployment of 2,500 soldiers from the Valcartier Base will soon take place. I would like you to tell me about the next phases of the deployment. With regard to how the mission is evolving, have things changed and have you learned any lessons from the soldiers who are there now?

In the presentation you gave us on the relations with the Afghan people, you mentioned that interventions had been made in villages and communities. I would like you to tell us about the atmosphere of our relations with the Afghans in the region where you are. It may be difficult to express this in numbers, but we can surely have a qualitative estimation.

[LGen Andrew Leslie]

Thank you, sir.

By the end of November, about 300 members from the Quebec sector will be sent to Afghanistan with the 1st Battalion of the Royal Canadian Regiment. In August of next year, about 2,300 persons, most of them francophone, will be deployed in Afghanistan to ensure that that country succeeds.

The decision to send the soldiers from SQFT is mine. They are superb. They will be based on a battalion group from the Royal 22e Régiment. They're among the finest soldiers I have seen in my career. They are next on deck.

Currently, they are assembling the battle group. They will be going to the United States to do a bit of training on replicating the conditions of the desert, which we can't do in Canada during the winter. Then they will go to Wainwright, where they'll be focusing on development, security, combat operations, and training of indigenous forces. They will go on leave, and they will then deploy into the mission area where they will acquit themselves brilliantly.

In terms of lessons,

we have a team currently in Afghanistan that is trying to understand all the lessons that have been learned on the ground. This team

is with the forward companies in the battle group.

The members of this team are holding discussions with warrant officers, chief warrant officers and officers on a daily basis to find out what lessons are being learned.

When they finish with those lessons, they then send them back to our lessons-learned centre in Kingston.

After about two weeks, they send the answer to Wainwright or to Gagetown, which are respectively our centres for collective and individual training. About 10 days ago, I was in Afghanistan. From there, I went directly to Wainwright.

By the time I got to Wainwright, lessons from a variety of attacks were already being discussed by the training staff, how those would have an impact on how they were going to prepare the next group of soldiers.

You mentioned the interventions led by General Howard. I am not really an expert, because I have not dealt with such things for years. As I said, I only got back a week ago.

At the local level, the children wave and smile at passing Canadian soldiers. Watching them distribute food packages is remarkable. Afghans are a very proud people, and they're grateful to those who help them. At the level of the Afghan commanders, they are effusive in their praise and support for the Canadians alongside whom they fight. They are, quite literally, ties that are forged in blood.

From talking to some of the Afghan civilians, I hear that they are concerned because they want to see visible signs of progress. Afghanistan has 34 provinces, 30 million people, and this is a judgment on my part, but I would say in the vast majority of provinces, perhaps 20 to 25, the conditions are much better than when I was in Kabul in 2003. The conditions are much more problematic in five or six other provinces, of which, obviously, Kandahar is one. So when General Richards and President Karzai say the next year for Afghanistan is going to be decisive, I would listen to them very carefully indeed.

The good news is that of the four to six million--and I think the figure is six million--young children now going to school, 40% of them are young ladies, and that is truly remarkable. Arguably, the future of that country will rest with those educated young ladies, who will be able to impose a certain degree of order on what has been a very tribal warrior society. But that's a generational issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, sir.

Five minutes, Ms. Bennett.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I'm going to give my time to Ujjal Dosanjh, but I just wanted to congratulate you on the recruiting team you sent down to the Federation of Medical Women in Moncton this summer. I was sorry to hear that as my birthdate is in December, it means I will be too old to enlist. But I thought they did a fabulous job. It was terrific.

As you know, I'm still worried about the screening for people coming back in terms of post-traumatic stress. I was wondering if you could make sure that when the Surgeon General comes, she'll be able to explain to us the actual process and the screening tool that is used.

[LGen Andrew Leslie]

Yes, ma'am.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Go ahead.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

General, I have heard your presentation. You say that you'll be able to manage for the length of the mission or as long as we're there, but it will be tough. Is that your way of saying, in simpler language, that you're stretched, but you'll find a way of completing whatever mission you've been given?

[LGen Andrew Leslie]

Sir, we are stretched. Any soldier or any officer will tell you that. On the other hand, if we didn't think we could get it done, given a variety of variables, which we hope to have a certain degree of control over, if I didn't think we could get it done, I would tell you.

Here are some of the variables.

Growth must continue for the army. My intent is not to sound service-centred, because I am a Canadian Forces officer, but as the army commander I'm especially concerned about the potential burnout of officers and senior NCOs, which we can mitigate. But growth must continue. That's job one for both regulars and reserves. We need more soldiers serving you, to better defend you both at home and abroad. So that's the first issue.

The second one is that as we take a look around at a variety of systems and infrastructure issues, we have to remain focused on making sure we do all we can to minimize the negative impacts on quality of life of our people, otherwise they will leave us. So far, the numbers from the returning battle group are no larger than, for example, when they got back from Bosnia or Croatia, or any of the other places to which we've been sent, but it's early days yet. So we will have to watch and monitor this closely.

I hope I've answered the question to your satisfaction.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Yes, you have. What you've said to me is this, and I want to summarize it for myself. Your ability to fulfill the mission on our behalf, among other things, depends on two major factors. One is the continuing growth of the number of forces as you recruit them and train them, and the second is the average number of people leaving the forces, as they usually do. And if there was any significant variation in those two factors, we could be in trouble.

[LGen Andrew Leslie]

Yes, sir.

Of course, the way to resolve that trouble is--and I'm sure the Government of Canada, through the minister, won't be shy about telling me--what are my priorities? We're not there yet.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.