National Defence Committee on Dec. 1st, 2009

[Col Marcel Belleau]

Obviously, labour law does not apply to the Armed Forces, as you are aware. Once a service is over, it is over. However — we must render unto Caesar what is Caesar's —, the contracts are, normally, respected. It remains that, for budgetary or other reasons, the military authorities are free to terminate a contract.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

In your opinion, is this the first time for such a thing to happen? Or, on the contrary, have you already witnessed such a situation?

[Col Marcel Belleau]

I was talking earlier about the matter of proportions. Perhaps this is the first time that so many reservists are being hired on contract. This situation was jokingly compared to a placement agency, but it really is no joke. These people are considered to be trained, prepared; we can call upon them, but if the task is finished, if we no longer need them or no longer have the money to pay them, then we can simply let them go.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

I was wondering what conditions were offered to militiamen or reservists in the contracts they are granted. Do they get social benefits? What really worries me, because I know some reservists, is the support provided to them once their deployment is finished. Are they offered the same support as that given to regular force members?

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

First of all, coming back to the contract issue, a class C contract must be carried through until the end of its term. I believe that a class B contract can be revoked with notice.

Secondly, with regard to the protection of reservists, let us talk about post-traumatic stress syndrome. When the reservist comes back, he for one or two months falls under the authority of the army. Then, after he returns to his unit, in his region, the post-traumatic stress syndrome problems appear long after, perhaps 12 or 14 months later, and it is then that the soldier is left to his own devices.

The National Defence and Canadian Forces ombudsman made 12 recommendations and he gave the Canadian Forces until the end of 2008 to implement them. To date, to our knowledge at least, none of these recommendations have been followed. As a matter of fact, I believe — but I am not certain of this — that certain cases are going to be going to court, because there are reservists who are having discussions with lawyers in order to determine what their rights are.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

I have a final question, and Mr. Bachand might also have one.

If you were able to take action today, if I told you that you were in charge of the file and were authorized to take concrete action, what would your first action, your first solution be?

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

I would refer back to what we are recommending. I would choose the first issue, that of the confirmation of the primary roles of the Militia and an analysis of the structure.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

In your opinion, that would really be the first move to make.

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

We could begin with that. What is the role of the Militia? If, as the member was saying, it is a role of immediate support to the Regular Force, then we would know it, and the system would have to align itself accordingly, if such were the desire of the country and of the politicians.

We would then look at the structure. Is the structure adequate? Do we maintain the Militia as is or do we change its vocation?

I therefore would recommend that this role be confirmed, that it be studied and that we look at the structure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

Madam Gallant, you have five minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and, through you, to our witnesses.

I do have to correct the record from the previous questioner. We need to step back and, as Mr. Hawn said before, look at the bigger picture.

First, there have been no cuts to the budget of the Department of National Defence. Second, there has been no reduction in the size of the reserve force. True, the total number of class B positions has been reduced, but that does not mean anyone has been let go or cut back. The total reserve force remains the same. Those who are no longer class B service go back to being on class A service and are still active members of the reserves. Would you agree that's a fair statement?

I do want to talk about some of the goodwill the government has already implemented to underscore the fact that this government is very much supportive of the reserves. First, the Canada first defence strategy commits to expanding the reserve force to 30,000 as well as outfitting the Canadian Forces with the equipment they need to do their jobs. It has been a steady complaint over the years that the reservist always had less than the best equipment to deal with, so we are improving that.

We've committed to expanding the Canadian Rangers. Here again, we are repositioning reservists from places where there is not as great a need to where there has been an obvious stated need. We speak to the north. There have been several discussions in this committee where there has been concern about northern and Arctic sovereignty. So we are expanding reservists; it's just that they're being repositioned to that location.

We implemented the reserve force pension plan. That had been a long-standing bone of contention whereby reservists, under previous governments, were not treated equally by regular forces. We implemented the job protection act for reservists under the Canada Labour Code and Public Service Employment Act.

I understand a number of provinces are also coming on board, so there is job protection for federal employees who choose to join the reserves, and as well for provincial employees. We did stand up a new reserve unit in Yellowknife and brought the Halifax Rifles back to service. As I mentioned, we're still training and outfitting several reserve forces in the Arctic.

My question has to do with the larger context here, which of course is Afghanistan. I'm sure you'll agree with me when I state that this mission is very dangerous and demands and requires significant preparation on the part of the troops deploying. In my riding of Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, we have several hundred people now in the States, in the desert, preparing to deploy. They'll be gone for several weeks, come back, and then leave their families once again.

The army reserve is fully engaged in supporting this Afghan mission, and indeed, the regular troops themselves say you can't tell a reservist fighting side by side with them from a regular force member. They are very well trained. On the Afghanistan mission, they're providing up to 20% of soldiers on each rotation.

Would you agree that training troops for the Afghan mission is a top priority for the army reserve and the Canadian Forces?

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

It's definitely a top priority to make sure the reservists who volunteer to deploy in Afghanistan receive training the same or very close to that of their counterparts in the regular force. Regarding Afghanistan, I agree with you.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

When our regular forces deploy, leaving a position that there is no one else in the regular forces to fill, they go to the reservists to fill that position. Parliament has voted that we will withdraw from the combat mission in 2011. Doesn't it make sense that as these soldiers come back to their regular positions, the reservists will also scale back to part time?

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

I agree with you. We're not disputing that. We're pointing out that during the seven years that Afghanistan has taken place, the militia units have been depleted of their leaders. Sixty per cent of the leadership of the reserve has been on full-time service, even class D in headquarters here in Ottawa and in the provinces. So you don't have the people at the unit, the cadre for the recruits that you're bringing in for the people who are still in class A. You don't have the instructors to train these people, because they're not available. You push basic training, because they don't have enough instructors. In 2011 we're going to pull out of Afghanistan, but it's going to take a while to get back to normal; the damage has been done. Still we continue.

I want to get back to the way the system works today. Yes, one role of the militia is to make sure we support the regular force under the deployment. But if you do that at the expense of the institution, then you have a big problem. What we are saying is that we should revisit the structure and the role of the militia. We should give the militia the resources to fulfill all these roles, which we do not have right now.

Regarding what you said about job protection, I was instrumental in starting that. I created the CFLC myself. It's a voluntary signature that you're going to do that, but it doesn't mean that you're really going to do it. I would ask you how many reservists the people who signed this document have on their payroll. You'll find that there are very few.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you.

Mr. Wilfert.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I was looking at the recommendations you put forward. Is there any priority to them? Your two major thrusts seem to be that you need resources and you need to fulfill the role of the militia. If we were trying to roll this out, what would you prioritize, and what would be your timeframe?

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

Could you repeat your question?

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

You have given out a sheet with recommendations on it. In order to deal with your fundamental points, which are to fulfill the role of the militia and provide the appropriate resources, how would you prioritize this list? What do you think we should be doing first, and what is your timeframe for doing it? We still have Afghanistan until 2011, we have the Olympics, we have two international summits, and we are seeing the effect on the units across the country.

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

I'd say our priority should be recruiting and pay levels. I'm talking about the system, not just saying we're going to increase the number of recruits. I'm saying you should look at the system of recruiting—the selection, the enrolment, the courses, and the planning. It doesn't work. We should also look at the authorized pay levels in the militia units, with a view to increasing the number of people in the units.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

When you say that it doesn't work, can you provide us at a later date with—

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

Okay, let's say I'm a young student. because most of the time we start with students, I come to a unit and I knock on the door and say, I want to join you guys, thanks. So you're going to fill out a thick stack of paper and you have to come once or twice or three times to the unit and make sure that everything is correct and all the documents are there, the comma's at the right place and so forth, and then this is sent to a recruiting centre. This is depending on where you live.

You'll be called two or three times to go to the recruiting centre in Montreal, or in Three Rivers, or in Quebec City, so you have to travel to go to the recruiting centre. It takes maybe two visits, most of the time three visits. Then after that, if you're lucky and you do business with a very good recruiting centre, in four or five weeks you are going to get a decision so you so you can be enrolled and serve with the unit. The average in Montreal, from what we're told by the unit commanders, is six to eight months. There are all sorts of reasons for that. I'm not saying the recruiting centres don't do their jobs, but they have some other priorities. The navy needs people, so the militia is there and so the navy goes on the top, and then it's something else, and so on.

The other thing is that the system is not customer friendly. The system is geared to people who want to join the regular forces. For the militia it's evenings or it's weekends, but most of the recruiting centres are not open in the evenings and not open during the weekends.

After that you're enrolled. Then you get to a unit and then you have to qualify to different courses, by blocks. So they say okay, now, this is the calendar. There will be a training on that block on such and such a date. It's good. The system in principle looks very good. But by the way, we're sorry, but because of a lack of instructors, or because of this, or because the timeframe doesn't take into consideration the students who are out there, their exams, and so forth, the course is cancelled. So it's next year. And so forth and so forth.

So what we're saying is that the system, the enrolment and the selection and the training, has to be revisited and geared to who are your clientele, who are your customers? This has been going on for the last 25 years. It's not just today. Since 25 years ago there have been commissions set up, and Professor Granatstein was on one commission with the judge and General Belzile, and before that there was another commission. They studied that, and it hasn't improved a bit.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

What I understand, then, is that our methods have not kept pace with what we're doing with the regular forces in terms of recruitment, encouragement, and making it much more user friendly?

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Good timing.