National Defence Committee on Dec. 1st, 2009

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

If we don't have enough of one, where else are we going to get the ready source that we don't have, other than from the reserves?

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

That's fine. That's one of the missions of the reserves, but by doing that and solely that, you're killing the reserves.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Canada's not going to be at war forever.

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

It has been seven years now, longer than the Second World War.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

At some point Afghanistan's going to be done. You have to set priorities, I suggest. You do what you have to do to get the job done.

I want to switch to a point you mentioned and a point Mr. Bachand brought up about people being cut and budgets being cut. There have been no budget cuts to the reserves. The simple fact is that if a reserve force commander overspends his budget, then come December or January time, there are going to be some consequences to that. And I suggest to you that in some cases--those that have been in the media in a bit of a way--that is in fact the case, that the reserve force local commander has overspent his budget for whatever reason. That is the reason people are finding out that their employment is being cut. It's not because there's a budget cut, but because the commander overspent his budget.

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

I'm sure you have some correct information, but what we have, as directed at the army council, is that class A has to be cut by 3.5 to 4 training days.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

In terms of budgets allocated to the reserves, there have been no budget cuts to how they parse that out, but what Mr. Bachand brought up directly relates to commanders overspending their budgets, and there's a consequence for overspending your budget. There's a consequence for me and my family when I overspend my budget.

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

I don't have that information. I'm sure you're more updated than we are, but that's not what we're getting from the units. But anyway, I'm not debating that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawn.

We'll give the floor to Mr. Wilfert.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I apologize, gentlemen, for not being here at the beginning. I always say that my mother wanted twins but there's only one of me.

First of all, for the Vancouver-Whistler Olympics, my understanding is that the number of reservists on full-time duty will be 14,500. That's more than half of the reserve force intended to be part-time soldiers. So they're going to be augmented and they're going to be 24/7, the same as regular forces.

I have two questions. One, perhaps you could respond to this first statement: militia regiments have largely gone from training units to being providers of augments for the regular force units. Obviously, the tempo of unit training has slowed and the pace of turning out more men, more women, particularly for Afghanistan, has stepped up dramatically. Perhaps you can respond to that.

My second comment is this. Do you think the reserve forces will survive the Afghan commitment until the end of 2011?

[Col Marcel Belleau]

If we take the example of the Olympics, it's quite reasonable to think that you need some reservists to be on full-time duty for this specific operation. This is one of the roles of the reserves, to conduct or to be part of domestic operations, but again this is a matter of proportion and a matter of duration.

I guess the figure of 14,000 reservists being fully employed is not related solely to the Olympics, but it will be the number of full-time personnel in all the areas of the functioning of the army. I don't know where they will find 14,000 full-time reservists, maybe on the shelf somewhere, but I guess this is the total number of full-time reservists.

I don't know, either, the duration that those persons will be full-time for this operation of the Olympics. If it is a month, two months, three months, that's okay. I guess the reserves can do that.

You also asked if the reserves will survive the Afghanistan commitment. I guess so, but what we want to raise is that not only for Afghanistan but for all those operations that Canada has to take, either in the country or outside, using too many reservists is changing the philosophy of the militia. What we want to raise is that it should be a decision made by the elected people like you and not taken by the back door by only DND or the staff. This is why we tried to raise the question before you, so that you can be able to make the right decision for the Canadian people and not be faced with the fact that you have not heard about it and it came by the back door.

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

Regarding the Olympics, they have great problems filling all the required positions. They are also asking another organization called the Commissionaires to provide people who would be employed by the armed forces to go to Vancouver and Whistler for the Olympics.

Regarding Afghanistan, the units are in very bad shape because the cadre of leaders has not been available for months or for years. The succession of the units is a very big concern, and also the allowed strength of the unit. The gentleman said there have not been budget cuts. Maybe, but I can tell you that recruiting has been cut. Most of the units have a quota of 10 to 12 recruits.

If you take into consideration the length of time it takes to enrol, you have great difficulty in convincing.... You can do it, but it requires a lot of dedication and effort to convince these people to wait until they get a decision on whether they can enrol or not. After that, there's the problem of making sure they get enough money to pay for what they have to face as students.

Most of the initial clientele are students at the start.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Can I make a quick comment that? From what I am hearing, reservists come back. They have a high level of training with the regulars. They come back. They either join the regulars or get out entirely. But going back to the slower pace of the reserves...once you've been to Paris you don't want to stay on the farm. Once they've been there, they really either like it or that is what they want to continue, and that is having an effect on reserves.

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

A small percentage of these people are able to join the regular force, but not all of them, because there aren't enough in the establishment. So some return to the units, but some don't or they get a class B, as we mentioned before.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

We will give the floor to Mr. Payne for five minutes.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming today. You have an interesting presentation.

I am a former member of the South Alberta Light Horse, so I value that training. I think it was extremely good for me. My son is a captain in the reserves there as well. He has just taken a posting as a class B.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but any of these reservists who decide to go into the regular forces are not made to go in; they do this on a voluntary basis.

So in terms of recruiting, what we understood the other day from a presentation we had from General Semianiw is that recruiting comes from various levels throughout the whole country in terms of how they get these individuals, some of those obviously being reservists. My view of that as a reservist is that certainly if the opportunity is there and the individual wants to do that and can meet the criteria, that is really one of the things the reserves should be there for. I think we see those coming, and certainly people do come back to the reserves. Like with any other job, people move on. They may not be able to return to the job they had as part-time militia. A number of companies say that individuals can take a leave and continue to serve in the forces and then come back to that job. So those kinds of opportunities are available.

We did talk a bit about the Olympics as well. Certainly I would see that as a great opportunity for reservists. It is a huge event, and so we talked about the Commissionaires as well. My recollection of some of the other Olympics is that we have seen those types of individuals as well. I suspect it would not be totally RCMP and the military.

You talked about a change in the structure of the command. I don't have the timing of when that structure changed. Would you be able to enlighten the committee on that?

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

It was the early 1990s. It was a change from militia commanded by militia officers to a total force concept, where the area was to be commanded by a one-star general, being regular force.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

So this is well before Afghanistan?

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

Yes, this is well before Afghanistan.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I guess in my civilian life I've seen organizations change structures, so I wouldn't expect anything different in the military, to certainly be up to date with what's going on in the country.

You also talked about potentially the training being slowed down. I'm fairly close with my son, and certainly I'm not sure he has advised me that training has slowed down, but potentially priorities might change because of certain things. I'm not sure if you would agree with that kind of statement or not.

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

You're talking about collective training or individual training or—

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Individual training.

[MGen Frédéric Mariage]

No, it hasn't slowed down. In fact, the requirement for training has increased. The level of requirement has increased.

But to get back to your point of class B, we are not against people serving in class B; in fact, we find it's good for them. But on the other hand, there are people who cannot be reservists because of today's requirements to be a reservist.

So you have a choice to make. Either you're a citizen soldier, where you're a citizen and you're a part-time soldier, or you become almost a full-time soldier and in your part time you're a citizen. Today the system prevents a lot of young people from joining the reserve or making a career in the reserve because of that.

To get back to Afghanistan, I think the effort that the reserve is making in Afghanistan is normal and should be done, but where we should be questioning them ourselves is on the infrastructure of the reserve. If the units are not capable of surviving in their community, then we think this would be the end of the militia and the reserve, and that's the case we're making here today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

I now give the floor to Mr. Paillé.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I thank you for being here with us. I am finding these discussions most interesting and enlightening.

Last week, Mr. Bachand made quick mention of some cuts that are going to be made, in rotation, starting in the month of January. I asked a question in this regard, but no one was able to provide me with an answer. I would like to come back to that issue.

In the case of the contracts between reservists and National Defence or the responsible authority, is the employer respecting its obligations? Is it entitled to proceed in this way, in other words to make temporary cuts?