Evidence of meeting #7 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was north.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Director, Policy Development, Assistant Deputy Minister - Policy, Department of National Defence
I can add to this, if you want me to.
One of the issues that the UAVs are facing in the north is the transmission of their information south. Because they are so high up, just because of the latitude and so on, there are some issues. They need relaying stations so that we can have access to the information. I know the air force is looking at that issue, to be able to employ some of these assets in the future in the north. So that's one of the technical issues we have to deal with.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Right, so we have a few hurdles to overcome, then.
What about the submarines in Canada's navy? Are they able to navigate in the Arctic?
4:40 p.m.
Cmdre D. Gardam
We've had a submarine operating near ice but not under the ice. These are air-breathing submarines, which means they do not have the ability to operate under the ice, because the diesel engines, which charge the batteries, need air to breath—so near but not under.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Which countries that we know of have submarines that would be able to navigate under the ice?
4:40 p.m.
Cmdre D. Gardam
France, Germany, the United States, Russia, the U.K., China—I think I have them all. That's it.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Okay, and of those countries, which ones do we know have been navigating in waters in the Arctic that we would consider to be our waters, Canadian waters?
4:40 p.m.
Cmdre D. Gardam
You're now approaching an area in which some of the information is classified. I can tell you we know our U.S. partners, because we have submarines ourselves and we want to avoid what happened with the U.K. and the French, which is having two submarines bump in the night. We have a method of controlling where allied submarines go. However, submarines that are not allied, we find them with our ships if they're there. If we're not in the space and time, we don't know where they are, just as no other nation would know where they are either.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
We may have non-allied submarines traversing beneath the ice in Canadian waters. We may. Okay. We're not going to go there, because that's classified.
4:40 p.m.
Cmdre D. Gardam
Yes.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
You did lead into my next question, and that is whether this deepwater port is going to be equipped to handle a nuclear submarine that is in trouble.
4:40 p.m.
Cmdre D. Gardam
I don't know. I can't answer that question, I'm sorry. A submarine in trouble, a nuclear submarine? It depends on what you mean by trouble.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
I mean trouble with the reactors. Will they be able to go there to seek help or assistance?
4:40 p.m.
Cmdre D. Gardam
I can't answer that. I don't think we've even looked at that. It's a good question.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
And thank you for being here.
I'll actually follow up on Mr. Bagnall's question and give you a chance to answer the one about dumping and the program the navy had for it.
4:40 p.m.
Cmdre D. Gardam
The Arctic Waters Pollution Prevention Act prohibits the discharge of black water, which is sewage, and oil, which is obviously a pollutant. It also restricts putting food stocks or garbage in the water. By garbage, normally, we refer to things such as garbage bags and so on.
Years ago when we developed new Canadian patrol frigates, we made them environmentally friendly. We don't put any material in the waste that is not biodegradable by Canadian standards. That includes what you would put in your sink at home. But that material, in the Arctic, is a prohibited substance.
Our ships are not capable of holding material such as used potatoes that have been ground and so on for a prolonged period of time. So if you're up in the Arctic for two, three, or four weeks, you have to ask for permission to do that. We asked for permission to pump what we call grey water into the Arctic, which is what you would put down your sink. But nothing was toxic. That was the key. It was not a toxic substance. It was normal waste from a galley that was going out. It was food stocks.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
That was not a blanket clearance. That was on an exercise.
4:45 p.m.
Cmdre D. Gardam
That was an exercise clearance we had, and that was for one of our patrol frigates in the eastern Arctic.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
I have just a quick question about lessons learned from the three operations you mentioned. What kinds of lessons are we learning from those? Are there any you can share?
4:45 p.m.
Cmdre D. Gardam
Yes, we're learning that working in the Arctic is very difficult. Fuelling is an example. If you take a frigate in the north and you want to fuel it, well, there are no fuel stocks. So we have to go alongside a coast guard ship. We have to boom the ship, which means we put an oil pollution boom around the ship when the ship's at anchor. We have to ensure that we do that in order to pass our fuel.
One lesson we're learning is that the environment is extremely fragile. We have extremely good practices when it comes to ensuring environmental due diligence, but we have to double- and triple-check everything we do to ensure that we do not damage that environment.
Those are the biggest ones we're learning. The other thing we're learning is that it's just difficult to support anything. The distances are extremely long. If something breaks down, you either repair it or it stays broken. There is no service station to go to.
The Canadian Coast Guard are experts in the Arctic, and the reason they are is that they have so many years of experience. When they sail in the Arctic, they take with them sailors who have been there for 20 years who can rebuild engines. Now, that's great if you're working on agricultural diesel. If you're working on a state-of-the-art jet engine, which is what is in Canadian patrol frigates....
We're learning a lot of lessons.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you.
Following up on Mr. Hawn's question, you are going to get back to us on whether that grey water thing still stands--you know, on whether it's active.
I wanted to go on the record that the constituent who was asking about the worldwide security was Ken Madsen.
I wanted to make sure I was clear on the training centre. It wasn't my question, but you said that the training centre will have a few staff for a few months of the year. Is that correct?
