National Defence Committee on Dec. 7th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I call this meeting to order.

I see quorum. It's 3:30 p.m. We have Minister Blair with us, and I'm sure that he will introduce the folks who are with him.

Minister Blair, you have five minutes for your opening statement, sir.

Thank you.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Once again, thank you to the committee for the opportunity to discuss our supplementary estimates (B) for the Department of National Defence, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Communications Security Establishment.

In the interest of time, Mr. Chair, I won't introduce all of the officials who are joining me here today. I understand that this committee will have an opportunity to spend some time with them after I have completed my appearance, but if I may, I'd like to point out that I'm joined today by General Allen, vice-chief of the defence staff; Deputy Minister Bill Mathews; and, of course, Chief Caroline Xavier from CSE. To the other officials, I apologize. I will introduce them as they come forward.

Ladies and gentlemen, as you know, you are as determined as I am to ensure that our people have what they need to do the difficult and demanding jobs that we ask of them, and today I come before you requesting an additional $1.5 billion to fund our defence priorities.

We are seeking $15.2 million for the Communications Security Establishment, most of which will be directed towards ongoing operations of the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security. These funds will bolster CSE's ability to act against malicious cyber-actors working to take advantage of Canadians, and this will also bring CSE's 2023-24 budgetary authorities to just over $1 billion for the first time in the agency's history.

For the Department of National Defence, the supplementary estimates include mostly routine or anticipated requirements, and as such, I will endeavour to limit myself to a brief overview of some of these items and how they support us in defending our nation and supporting our people.

To begin with, I'll reiterate that our number one priority will always be the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces in the Department of National Defence, and this is reflected in these estimates, with over a third of the ask going towards compensation and benefits for military members. This is in line with increases that were negotiated earlier this year through collective bargaining for public servants.

We are also accessing reprofiled funds totalling $151.4 million for the Heyder Beattie and LGBT purge class action settlement agreements. These funds will compensate members who have been affected by sexual misconduct and discrimination and hopefully provide closure and promote healing for those members.

I will not belabour the importance of fair compensation for our people in uniform or of creating a modern and inclusive work environment where all members of the defence team feel protected, supported and respected. I believe that's well appreciated by the members of this committee. It was very clear when I was with you before, two weeks ago, that you understood the difficulties that are faced by CAF in terms of recruitment and retention, and I believe that you are all in agreement that we must do everything in our power to ensure that the CAF remains a viable and attractive career option for existing and prospective members, and because in an evolving threat environment, we need a robust, ready and resilient workforce that can meet the complex and rapidly evolving challenges that we're facing, these efforts become extremely important.

At our last appearance, we had the opportunity to speak about the dramatic increase in domestic deployments and the high demand for CAF support in responding to natural disasters. We also need to strengthen Arctic security and to modernize NORAD, not to mention the many obligations to our allies and partners as we seek to advance peace and stability around the world and to defend the rules-based international order that is being continually challenged.

The additional funds we are requesting will help us to meet these demands, whether it's the $550 million to support Ukraine through military aid in Operation Unifier, the $119 million we're requesting to expand our NATO contribution program and establish the North American regional office for DIANA, which is NATO's new defence innovation accelerator for the North Atlantic program located in Halifax, or the $30 million in transfers to other organizations to help with defence-related issues and priorities.

As one of the largest departments, the Department of National Defence is 100% committed to responsible stewardship of public funds while delivering the best results possible for Canadians. I hope you will see these estimates as evidence of that commitment.

I want to thank you, and I'm now happy to take any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister.

With that, we'll start our six-minute round with Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and officials, for being here.

It has been eight years, and we have seen $10 billion in money that was supposed to be spent on our Canadian Armed Forces lapse, and we didn't get the equipment we needed on time.

We know you're cutting a billion dollars from the budget right now. When we look at where you projected your SSE spending to be, it's $25 billion under where it's supposed to be by this point in time. This year alone, you're underspending SSE by $6 billion. That really talks to the underinvestment in our Canadian Armed Forces.

We all just saw the video from Admiral Topshee, in which he talked about the condition of our navy. It's going to be another 15 years just to replace our frigates. We have these new AOPS, but we can only take out one at a time because we don't have enough sailors to man them. Something has to give.

Minister, can you tell us if we are pulling out of the Indo-Pacific with our frigates if we don't have enough manpower? Are we no longer going to participate in the Maritime Task Force under NATO?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

First of all, let me speak to, if I may, Admiral Topshee's video, which I think was frank and a very important explanation of where the Royal Canadian Navy finds itself currently.

We have already committed significant resources to replenishing our fleet. The Halifax-class frigates are coming to the end of their lives, and we have undertaken contracts to replace the Arctic patrol ships and the surface combatant ships, but it's going to take time for them to be delivered.

Admiral Topshee expressed his concern about the need to continue to maintain the Halifax-class ships and to ensure that we have the personnel we need to staff them as they undertake the important missions to which they are assigned.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We know the condition of the navy and we should be getting ships built quicker. We're going to be waiting 15 years to replace the Halifax-class frigates.

RUSI, the Royal United Services Institute, came out with its report on the Royal Canadian Air Force fighter jets. They are saying that we're down to 56 pilots, and we cannot maintain that to operate a NORAD and NATO mission. One of your predecessors, Minister Sajjan, went out there and bought a bunch of used Australian fighter jets. We got 88 aircraft, supposedly, but we don't have the pilots to fly them.

Are we withdrawing from NATO and from doing any air policing?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Absolutely not, and as you're well aware, we have entered into a contract for the delivery of 88 of the F-35s. Just last week, we also announced the procurement of up to 16 new P-8s for multi-mission aircraft.

In my conversations with General Kenny, he has been very clear that the acquisition of these new aircraft, both the multi-mission and the new fighter aircraft, really creates an opportunity for him to turn around the challenge they have faced in recruiting and training new pilots. It's an expensive proposition. We talked about the cost of training these pilots, but we remain committed to it.

We are acquiring the aircraft that the Royal Canadian Air Force needs, and those newly acquired aircraft will create new opportunities for us to meet our recruitment, training and retention goals.

No, we are not withdrawing from any missions. In fact, Mr. Bezan—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

How come you didn't support our F-18s?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

—I believe sincerely these new acquisitions are going to enable us to fulfill our NATO commitments and to do the important missions that we are obliged to do.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We also know that we're not getting the F-35 fleet in full operation until 2032. We don't have the pilots for the CF-18s. We know that the training in Canada has been wound up. We're going to be relying on the United States to train our pilots, and they have a backlog of their own pilots, plus pilots from other allies to get through their own system. We aren't going to be able to address the pilot shortage quickly enough to deal with the threats.

The war is not going to wait for us if things continue to escalate on the global scene.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I would always invite General Kenny to speak for himself, but he has assured me they continue to be able to be fully operational with our fleet of F-18s and they will continue to support that fleet until the delivery of the new F-35s.

It is not without its challenges. I think this committee in particular has canvassed the issue of recruitment and retention of the very best and the brightest that the Canadian Armed Forces needs. We're making investments in not only the air force and the platforms, but also in the training and the equipment, and the maintenance and the supply for the armed forces.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

When we look at the supplementary estimates and when I look at the budget and an economic update from a couple of weeks ago, there appears to be $1.5 billion less in it for Ukraine and for Operation Reassurance. Are we backing off with our support for Ukraine? It's definitely less money than what we have given them in military aid.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

That's an extraordinary question coming from you, Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Well, I want to see more.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

What's that?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I want to see more, but we're actually seeing a reduction.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

You'll have every opportunity to continue to support more, because that is the work that we are doing.

Canada has so far committed $2.4 billion of aid to Ukraine. We've been delivering on those commitments. Our most recent announcement was for 50 additional LAVs and armoured medical vehicles for Ukraine. We're working very closely with GDLS in London to ensure that the production of that is accelerated and that those vehicles will be delivered as quickly as possible to Ukraine.

There has been no abatement or easing of our commitment to Ukraine. We have been continuing to deliver. As a matter of fact, just about a week and a half ago I announced the delivery of nearly 11 million rounds of ammunition to Ukraine, also with assault weapons and other winter equipment that Ukraine said they needed from us. When they ask, we deliver.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Mr. Fisher, you have six minutes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Blair, Major-General and Deputy Minister for being here. To you and the rest of your team, thank you for being here again at committee.

Minister, Conservatives are known for calling Atlantic Canada a “culture of defeat”, but let me tell you—I know you know this—and let me tell everybody in this committee that Atlantic Canada is a culture of innovation. For example, my riding of Dartmouth—Cole Harbour is home to an established and growing defence research and development industry.

Minister, bringing NATO's defence innovation accelerator for the North Atlantic, which we know as DIANA, to our municipality will be of real benefit to its growth. I also know that these incredible researchers and innovators will be of real benefit to NATO as well. I see that the supplementary estimates include $30.1 million over four years, starting in 2023-24, and $10 million in ongoing funding for DIANA's establishment in our municipality.

I understand that the Conservatives are going to vote against this, which is a bit of a shock, but can you give us a better idea of the timeline for establishing DIANA? Could you also speak a little bit more about how this supports NATO's efforts as well?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes. We have already committed the money, and it's in the estimates, but we're actually standing up the operation of DIANA even now. We've just recently concluded a competition that had applicants from all over the NATO countries to participate in new innovations and projects for DIANA. Seven Canadian companies have been successful in that process. We are moving ahead.

I think there's a great opportunity. There are DIANA offices in Estonia, I believe, and London, and now they'll be in Canada, located in Halifax.

This is not just a Canadian centre; this is going to be the centre for North America. It's a huge opportunity for us to not just connect innovators and industry to the Canadian military but to also create real opportunities for Canadian industry right across the NATO countries. It will have the effect of improving innovation and moving forward in NATO capabilities to respond to the threat that our adversaries represent.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Minister.

On the topic of the Conservatives voting against these supplementary estimates, that means the Conservatives are going to vote against support for NATO. They're going to vote, again, against supporting Ukraine, and they're going to be voting against, as I also see in the supplementary estimates, better wages for Canadian Armed Forces members.

We expect an awful lot from our CAF members. They're doing incredible and important work here at home and abroad. This committee agrees that they deserve to be well paid for the work they do. I can tell you that from what I've been hearing, it hasn't been enough. Wages haven't necessarily been keeping up.

That said, I'm glad to see wage increases for CAF members in the estimates. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about these increases—how they will be implemented, when they will be implemented and specifically how they will benefit some of the lower-paid ranks.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'm going to be careful here, Mr. Fisher, on the precise details of these contracts, because many people were impacted by the negotiated settlements through both the public service and CAF. My understanding is that this has resulted in wage increases between 8% and 10% for members of the Canadian Armed Forces, which is not insignificant.

There are other investments that we have to make, such as in health services, in housing services and in making child care available. All of those investments are also part of how we're attempting to support the reconstitution, but fair wages and fair compensation for the men and women who serve, both in our regular forces and the reserve, are really important. These were very much in line with the settlements that were negotiated through the public service and through Treasury Board for the broader public service, but it maintains a level of parity for members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Do I have much time left?

It's two minutes.

I wonder whether you could just talk a bit more about wages. Again, we have conversations at this committee on a regular basis, and all the members, especially the opposition, seem.... The Conservatives will often talk about how they feel we're not doing enough. I can't cross the t's and dot the i's when they talk about not doing enough, and then see them stand up and vote against the things we are trying to do for our Canadian Forces members.

It saddens me and it shocks me that someone would say one thing—that a party would say it supports our armed forces—and then vote against the things that you and your team are putting on the table today.

I just want to get your thoughts on that.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. Fisher, without commenting on how any particular partisan position may play out or how a political party may vote, I believe very strongly that we have to invest in the Canadian Armed Forces. That includes, particularly, investing in the men and women who serve, and fair wages. That compensation is important, but so are many of the other investments we are making as well.

Certainly the money that the Canadian government has determined is required is directly in response to the request we've received from Ukraine and our NATO allies. I'm hopeful. I'll just say that. I'm hopeful that this will receive the support of the House of Commons when we vote on these matters later today. I am hopeful that we'll be able to pass this legislation, because the funding for defence and for Ukraine that is in the supplementary estimates, I think, will be really important. It's important to the men and women who serve. It's important that we continue to invest in them and that we do it carefully.

I believe the vast majority of members of the House of Commons believe in support for Ukraine. I believe the vast majority of Canadians believe in supporting Ukraine.

Ukraine is, in many ways—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You're going to have to leave Mr. Fisher's question—