National Defence Committee on Dec. 7th, 2023

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Apparently I have to leave this.

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes, you do. Thank you, Minister Blair.

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us today, Mr. Minister. It's always a pleasure to have you here.

I would like to come back to the issue of funding for member compensation and the $583 million set out in the supplementary estimates. Despite wage increases, it must also be noted that cuts are being made in other places. For example, some allowances are being cut, such as the post living differential, and replacing that allowance will save about $30 million.

Considering that, inflation and the rising cost of living, will $583 million be enough to encourage members to stay in the Canadian Armed Forces? I'm thinking in particular of senior military officers, not just NCMs.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much for the question.

I believe the settlement that was negotiated was a fair one, and it reflected the inflationary pressures that CAF members were experiencing previously, but we were also mindful that affordability has become a significant issue. In the same way that we talk every day in the House of Commons about the affordability challenges Canadians are facing from coast to coast to coast, those same challenges are extended to the members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

One of the things we have tried to do.... You mentioned, for example, that some of the funding has been shifted. We might talk about the housing supports that were available to all members. A decision was made to make those housing supports available to a broader range of people, but particularly for the lower incomes of the Canadian Armed Forces. Providing the same level of benefits to those who make very high salaries as to those who make very low salaries didn't seem to be an issue of fairness. The people who made less needed more help, so we made some changes to enable them to do that.

We also realized that the impact of that change could be pretty significant for somebody who suddenly lost a benefit, so there was work done—I think good work was done—to make sure that the introduction of those changes would be phased in over a three-year period. People at the higher wage levels are experiencing a change in their benefit, but it won't be immediately impactful because it's being phased in over a three-year period.

I believe this gives an opportunity. We're trying to be very careful with the money we have to ensure that it is used to the best benefit of those who need it the most.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

I know you weren't in your position when it was announced that the differential was going to be replaced. However, the Department of National Defence was criticized for not informing the forces of this new approach. It was perceived as a slap in the face.

I'd now like to talk about Department of National Defence funding. Since 2014, when Russia annexed Crimea, most NATO member states have increased their budgets, and even more so since February 2022.

In that context, do you feel that the public would have supported you if the defence budget, and therefore members' wages, had been maintained, if not increased, rather than decreasing by $900 million, as announced?

I get the impression that we're in a situation where military spending is increasing, but the government has failed to seize this opportunity.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

To be very clear, and as you're well aware, in 2017 the government introduced “Strong, Secure, Engaged”, which was a program that involved a number of significant acquisitions. It was an increase in defence spending over a period of several years, from 2017 through to the end of 2026. The plan in “Strong, Secure, Engaged” was to increase defence spending by approximately 70% over that period of time.

There was strong public support for that, because I believe very strongly that Canadians do value very much, first of all, the important role that the Canadian Armed Forces provides in maintaining the national defence and security of our country. I know how appreciative they have been when we've called on the Canadian Armed Forces to assist in response to emergencies, as we talked about last week when we met. I think they understand that Canada has international obligations to NATO, NORAD, and the Indo-Pacific. There's an expectation and there's strong Canadian support for the Canadian Armed Forces.

We've also recognized—and there has been lots of discussion here—that the increase in spending we put in place when we began the program in 2017 does not really match the new threat environments. The world has become an increasingly dangerous place. Since the pandemic, the increasing climate-related disasters, and most importantly the more adversarial and aggressive nature of Russia and China, we know we have to do more. I've attempted to acknowledge at committee previously that we must do more.

Canadians have every expectation that we'll be careful when we're spending their money. That's our job. I also believe very strongly that they also support continued investment in making sure that the Canadian Armed Forces have the tools they need to do the job.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll allocate 39 seconds to your next round.

Next we have Madam Mathyssen for six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you to all for being here again today.

This week, we sadly saw the new numbers come from StatsCan on the military sexual trauma issue. You've repeatedly said you're committed to enacting Justice Arbour's recommendations. Certainly this involves her fifth recommendation, but we haven't seen the full measures that we need to see, and considering what came out of that StatsCan report, it's extremely worrying.

Those crimes are on the increase. Certainly the reporting is on the increase and not on the decrease. I would argue that many of the survivors of military sexual trauma are losing quite a lot of faith in the system and in the help they need to get, considering report after report. It's not getting better.

I brought forward a bill—and I've talked to you about this in committee before—to end the concurrent jurisdiction for criminal sexual offences, because ultimately those who have started in the military justice system were shunted to civilian court. They were then told they weren't going to get their day in court. They're in this in-between period.

You have a bill before you now that I introduced. I would like to know if you will take that bill as soon as you possibly can, which is immediately, to ensure that those survivors receive the justice they deserve.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thanks very much.

First of all, if I may comment on the StatsCan report on sexual misconduct in the military, I agree with you: It's a deeply concerning report.

I think it's important to reflect on the time period in which the survey was taken, which was from October 2021 to 2022, but it doesn't in any way diminish the importance of the findings in that report. I think it is a stark reminder of the concern that the inappropriate behaviour still persists and that we have every responsibility to act and to act expeditiously. We have the 48 recommendations of Justice Arbour.

By the way, I would also echo the importance of your comments on the importance of meeting with survivors, advocates and organizations. I did that earlier today. I think that's important. I continue to listen broadly. Just as an example, I know that Canadian Armed Forces General Carignan has conducted interviews and consulted with almost 9,000 members of the Canadian Armed Forces, because listening to those voices is really important.

I have been working very closely with our external monitor and with Justice Arbour with respect to the implementation of all the recommendations. I think the signature one is recommendation 5. We took immediate steps in response to the issue raised by Justice Arbour by ensuring that all future sexual assault investigations were being investigated by the civilian police and adjudicated through the civilian criminal justice system.

What is required is legislative reform. I want to assure you that I have a whole team of people who are working full out on that. They're working closely with Justice Arbour and survivor groups and consulting with the Canadian Armed Forces and with solicitors general and attorneys general in all of the provinces across the country.

We're working very hard. We will bring that work back. It's complex. I don't offer that as an excuse but rather an explanation. We're working through the important complexity. Justice Arbour has asked me to take the time to get this right but to keep moving, and we are moving very expeditiously on it.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Ultimately, though, what happened when those cases were moved in the middle to a civilian court system was that it ensured they didn't have the jurisdictional capacity to deal with them. Some of those cases were dismissed.

What this legislation would do immediately is help to correct that from ever happening again. You could do that right now. I too have an incredible team that went to work to ensure we had some legislation. You could adopt that right now.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I've read your legislation. It's quite clear. It's about four lines. There's a lot more work that needs to be done to not just simply.... The legislation is going to be important. We are working on that. I'll have more to say about that in the future. At the same time, there's a great deal of other work that needs to be done in order to make sure that it gives effect.

I'll simply acknowledge—and we heard this very clearly from the external monitor, from Justice Arbour and, most importantly, from the victims—that on these types of offences, the change that is required is not merely an event. It's a process. It's very important in the process that we do all of the things that are necessary to give it its true effect, which is to protect those individuals and to make sure their cases are dealt with appropriately.

In addition, I think a big part of recommendation 5 is to make sure that we continue to provide the supports to the survivors of sexual assault so that it's not simply a matter of criminal investigation and proper adjudication of their complaints, but also to make sure the supports are in place to help them recover from these offences.

Listen, I've talked to you before about my very strong desire that we'll work together on this. I remain committed to that.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Survivors have been waiting a really long time, and it's been 18 months since Arbour, so please act faster.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes, ma'am.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Ms. Kramp-Neuman, you have five minutes, please.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, your government has done a fantastic job of standing around, claiming that it is taking steps to address the unacceptable instances of sexual harassment in our armed forces.

In the past 12 months, sexual misconduct in our Canadian Armed Forces has doubled, and this government has failed. The political leaders of a self-described feminist government, including the Prime Minister and now three ministers of defence, should be ashamed themselves in their failure to stem the flow of institutionalized violence against our young men and women and by being passive, indifferent observers to its growth.

Over the past eight years, survivors and experts have been shouting from the rooftops. Justice Deschamps warned in 2015. Justice Fish warned in 2021. Justice Arbour warned in 2022. Your government's response was to cut a billion dollars and to establish a panel to review military colleges, a panel that your office delayed in creating because you couldn't find seven experts. You spoke to this yesterday.

The experts are the survivors—the young men and women on the receiving end of catcalls, the troops who found themselves in a darkened hallway with a drunk superior at the Christmas party, the women who were pinned up against the bulkhead of a ship and raped. The experts, Minister, are the men and women under your charge who are emotionally, mentally and physically violated.

As a mother myself, I would find it extremely difficult to justify approving of my children joining your Canadian Armed Forces, an organization that has no place for them to live, no sufficient money to pay them, no equipment for them to use, all overseen by a government with no respect for their autonomy.

Responsibility starts and stops with your political leadership. After eight years of inaction and gutting, you, as a new minister, have a lot of work to do.

On top of the billion-dollar cuts, Minister, why has your government, despite allegedly taking steps to address sexual misconduct, allowed instances of sexual harassment to double—double, Minister—in a single year in the CAF?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

That was two minutes and 30 seconds, so you have two minutes and 30 seconds to respond.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much.

Let me just back up a little bit. The report that was released by StatsCan yesterday actually involved surveys that were taken by 23,000 members of the Canadian Armed Forces between October 2021 and October 2022. I accept completely the concerns that were raised.

I think this is important. The Canadian Armed Forces is one of the only institutions in the country—one of a few in the world—that are actually gathering this information and speaking to their own people. As I mentioned earlier, General Carignan has also consulted with 9,000 members of the force on the steps that are necessary.

I appreciate the partisan perspective on what has been done, but frankly, I have—

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Excuse me, Minister, if I may. The victims whom I'm speaking about, the survivors, must become victors.

What motivation do we have to retain current members and recruit future heroes if we're allowing this to happen?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Please continue.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you.

I would offer a slightly different perspective, and it's not mine. It's the perspective of Madam Justice Arbour, whom I've spoken to a number of times on these matters, and, more importantly, of our external monitor, Madam Therrien, who has been given the important job of monitoring the progress. She's issued two very important reports. I'd invite members of this committee to familiarize themselves with those reports, because I do think they clearly articulate the hard work and progress that are being made.

We have now taken some very significant steps in response to those recommendations. Just yesterday, as the member indicated, we stood up a review panel for the military colleges, both for RMC in Kingston and for Saint-Jean.

The work and the expertise.... I would invite the members of this committee to take a good hard look at the people we've appointed there.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

If I may, Minister, just in the nature of time—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm trying to be equal in time here. I'm going to have to let him respond.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I believe I have five minutes, right?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You're down to about 20 seconds.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

My last question is this: In your opening comments, Minister, you acknowledge that the priority for you is that the men and women in the CAF be respected and protected. Do you feel that's happening?