Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 12th, 2008

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

On November 22, you were not aware of the potential risk. MDS was the only party in the loop. However, MDS is not part of the protocol. If the State does not ensure that people are made aware immediately of the potential risk, then the protocol will not be implemented. Consequently, the next time an incident occurs, if people are not any more aware of the potential risk, then the protocol will not be implemented. We will be in the exact same situation as before. Just because there is a protocol doesn't mean that it will automatically be implemented. That decision is up to you.

[Cassie Doyle]

I think it is a really important issue you raise about risk. This whole situation was about the management of risk.

The protocol we have in place is with AECL, which runs the reactor. So the intent of the protocol is to ensure that when there is any shutdown of the reactor, planned or unplanned, we are immediately notified so that we, within the department and with our colleagues at Health Canada, can assess the risk. We would go to the commercial supplier to seek information at that time, but the responsibility in the protocol is with the agents of the Government of Canada.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I have one last question for you, Mr. Doyle.

On December 10, Enercan participated in a conference call with European officials. It was disclosed at this time that Europe could supply only between 10% and 15% of the isotopes needed, although this represented 50% of MDS's market share. This 10% to 15% corresponds to all of Canada's requirements. The official in charge of the reactor in Belgium clearly said that he can meet all of Canada's needs—not the needs of MDS, but Canada's needs. Yet, it was reported that they could supply only between 10% and 15% of the isotopes required.

Are you aware that this figure represents all of Canada's needs?

[Cassie Doyle]

I'm not aware of that particular conference call, which I understand was led by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

Perhaps Sue can comment on that.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

It says here that EnerCan participated in a conference call. Who in fact participated?

[Sue Kirby, Assistant Deputy Minister, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources]

Yes, a staff member participated in the conference call. The discussion was around the theoretical possibility of augmenting supplies from reactors. These were not isotopes that were currently available that could be diverted to meet the needs of Canada at the time. The discussion was that given the other reactors in the world that could potentially produce isotopes, was there a possibility of either preventing scheduled maintenance planned at that time, or augmenting supply. There was a discussion that it might be possible at that time with some lead time, but the lead time would have been too long to deal with the crisis that was seen in Canada.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Yet, Mr. Ponsard, a Belgian official who participated in the conference call, said that he could supply Canada with the isotopes it needed by December 18. The reactor came back on line on December 16. We are talking about a difference of two days. He maintained that he could supply all of the isotopes needed. If an official from your department participated in the conference call, you should be aware of the conversation that took place.

[Sue Kirby]

We can provide some additional information if the committee wishes, but it is not my understanding that supplies would have been available in Canada on the 18th. That was not my understanding of what was presented on that call. However, I was not a participant.

We can get some additional information.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Was the conference call recorded?

[Sue Kirby]

No.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I see.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Merci, Monsieur Ouellet. Your time is up.

We go now to Ms. Gallant for up to five minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Through you to the witness, first of all, please forgive my opposition colleagues who through innuendoes about your appointment to the board of AECL are attempting to smear a woman who has served in the public service for over 30 years.

The CNSC had staff on site at Chalk River for well over a year when...and in the entire 50 years of that reactor being in existence, it was safer than ever before. Now, recognizing that MDS Nordion did not contact the department during the week of November 22 to November 30, through your subsequent conservations with AECL, MDS Nordion, and CNSC, was there some other threat, something else, that all of a sudden was having the CNSC declare that reactor unsafe?

[Cassie Doyle]

Mr. Chair, it is accurate that there is staff from CNSC on site at Chalk River. Certainly we had canvassed, both through independent experts as well as the CNSC staff itself, the fact that the reactor itself was as safe as it had been before the shutdown, and would in fact be safer with the connection of one safety pump hooked up to the emergency power system.

As to the position of the CNSC, I'm really not in a position to answer that.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay. So what we still haven't determined here--perhaps through being involved in different conversations and meetings with the people I mentioned before--is why at the end of November, beginning of December, the CNSC deemed the AECL Chalk River site to be less safe than it was in October, when they had made all these improvements subsequent.

[Cassie Doyle]

Mr. Chair, I guess that is the question that we were working on attempting to resolve for a number of days as it became evident that this was going to create a very urgent health situation in the country. It is a matter of the licence of the AECL, and it is, I think, a point of disagreement between the two agencies.

I'm not really able to comment on the position of CNSC. I think it's best they comment on that themselves.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

So as far as you're concerned, there is no indication that the CNSC, for whatever reason, could have been using that specific point in time as leverage to get them to do something. There was nothing else, using that point in time, to get them to do what they wanted to do, or not that you're aware of.

[Cassie Doyle]

Not that I'm aware of, Mr. Chair.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

Now, you're part of the AECL board. Have you sat in on a meeting yet?

[Cassie Doyle]

I sat in on my first meeting in January. So I have attended a meeting.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

What sorts of decisions are made by the board of AECL--strictly financial, sales, legal? Is there licensing oversight on the part of the board? Are operational matters discussed? What are the responsibilities of board members?

[Cassie Doyle]

Mr. Chair, it's an important question. It's like the governance of any crown corporation. The board itself is responsible for setting the overall policy and plan for the corporation, the financial accountability of course, and for taking major decisions that relate to the overall commercial prospects of the corporation. Those would be the general responsibilities of the board.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

In the brief time you've been a member of the board so far, is there any indication that a good working knowledge of the nuclear industry would be required to be a member of the board?

[Cassie Doyle]

Mr. Chair, I would say that you can make more of a contribution the more you know about the industry itself, although there are members of the board who bring in some very strong background from the financial sector, for instance, or from the corporate sector, and who perhaps bring in a different skill set to the board. It's a mixed board.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.