Evidence of meeting #15 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Ms. Gallant.
We go now to the official opposition, and Mr. Alghabra.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We have the benefit of hindsight now and might want to take advantage of that hindsight to understand what happened and why it happened and to challenge the decision to fire an independent tribunal commissioner, because it's an unprecedented and, in my opinion, inappropriate intervention.
For the benefit of those independent institutions that protect Canadians, this decision, this extraordinary action, has to be tested before future governments—in fact, the current government or the future government, if the Conservatives are in opposition—can know whether it's a good decision or a bad decision.
These are important discussions that are taking place, and I know the Conservatives are not usually comfortable with questions, but this is part of our job. We have to ask these questions.
Deputy Minister, you're familiar with the guide for ministers under the title, “Accountable Government: A Guide for Ministers and Secretaries of State”?
I'm going to quote an excerpt from it. It says:
Ministers and their staff are also expected not to intervene, or appear to intervene, on behalf of anyone, including constituents, with quasi-judicial tribunals on any matter before them....
Being the principal advisor to the minister, did you advise the minister on these two phone calls or the firing and on the fact that it would appear to be in contravention of this guideline?
12:55 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources
I would agree that the importance of this kind of discussion is to ensure that we learn from the experience. That certainly has been the approach of my department.
But I can tell you that the guidance document you refer to speaks against intervening in a particular case and on behalf of an individual constituent or an individual interest group. I want to be very clear that the calls that were made by my minister to the head of CNSC were in the public interest. It was not to direct in any way the outcome of the decision, but instead to encourage action because of the urgency of the health situation in Canada. There was no pressure to make a particular decision, and the guidance refers to intervening on a particular decision.
There is room for communication always between ministers and quasi-judicial tribunals on the administrative matters of how efficiently the overall system is working. In this case, the issue was whether we could expedite a convening of the commission to secure—
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
I'm sorry, Ms. Doyle, I understand that. I'm asking whether you advised the minister on this matter before he made the calls.
12:55 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources
Mr. Chair, I advised the minister, I attended the call, I helped schedule it—it was a scheduled call—and I certainly.... I advise the minister on any areas in the portfolio, and I certainly—
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
So you advised the minister that it was appropriate to make that call?
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Okay.
You just also told us that the press release announcing your appointment was issued a week after you were appointed, give a day here or there. But obviously it was probably a few days after the first phone call that was done with the commissioner, the nuclear safety regulator.
Don't you think it would have been appropriate that—
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Excuse me, Mr. Alghabra.
Is there a point of order, Mr. Anderson?
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
I don't know whether everyone else is getting as tired as I am of this line of questioning, but the member has had this question answered half a dozen times. He continues to try to basically, I would say, smear the deputy minister. I think it's inappropriate. He's already had the question answered a number of times. I think she's been clear on that.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Mr. Alghabra, the point of order is valid. This question has been answered, and for you to be repeatedly calling for the same question to be answered is not appropriate.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll take that under advisement.
Deputy Minister, I'm sure you realize that there's no attempt to smear you at all. This is an attempt to get to the facts.
Again, is it fair to assume that the commissioner would not have known on December 5 that you were on the board of AECL. Is that correct?
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
The deputy minister has already pointed out that the order in council was public, as every other one is. If Mr. Alghabra, as evidenced earlier, didn't know about this, it's because he was not paying attention, not because the government hasn't done its job in notifying the public of the appointments.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you.
Mr. Alghabra, if you'd get to a line of question that you haven't....
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Is it fair to say that the president would not have known on December 5 that you were a member of the AECL board of directors?
12:55 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources
Mr. Chair, that's accurate.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Don't you think it would have been appropriate for you to at least let the commissioner know, or to recuse yourself from that phone call until that piece of information was known?
1 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources
Mr. Chair, I think I have canvassed this question a couple of times. I am the principal advisor to the Minister of National Resources on all matters within his portfolio. As such, I sit in...and I provide advice on all aspects of the portfolio. I don't believe there was any necessity, or that it would have been in any way useful or made any difference to bring that information to the attention of the head of CNSC.