Evidence of meeting #18 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was carbon.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Allan  President and CEO, Council of Forest Industries
Mary Granskou  Senior Policy Advisor, Canadian Boreal Initiative
Don Roberts  Managing Director, CIBC World Markets
Réjean Gagnon  Professor/Researcher and Director/Coordinator of the consortium de recherche sur la forêt boréale commerciale (CRFBC) , Department of Basic Sciences, Université du Québec à Chicoutimi

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Lloyd St. Amand Liberal Brant, ON

Mr. Chair, you make a point, but you're assuming that the minister has had no part in this. These two Conservative members have been appointed by the minister, according to the article. A Bloc member has not been appointed. A Liberal hasn't been appointed. Ms. Bell has not been appointed. So this is a sanitized, filtered study, which is being carried on apparently at the same time as the all-party study.

You're right. We can deal with the press in whatever fashion we want.

If the minister saw fit to conclude that this committee will not do its job properly, and that's one clear inference to be taken from this parallel study having been undertaken, would that he had seen fit to appoint not just Conservative members but members, for instance, from the Bloc and from the Liberal Party. Mr. Boshcoff has driven a study on the forestry industry arguably more than anybody else on this committee.

I think Mr. Ouellet is correct. The rest of us should take personal and professional offence at having been excluded from the short list the minister is seeing fit to favour.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Your leaders have all appointed you to this committee, in effect.

Let's get on with the meeting.

We're dealing, of course, with a study of the unique opportunities and challenges facing the forest products industry. As I've said, in the first meetings we've had excellent witnesses. I am looking forward to the witnesses today.

We have as witnesses today, from the Council of Forest Industries, John Allan, president and CEO. From the Canadian Boreal Initiative, we have Mary Granskou, senior policy advisor. From CIBC World Markets, we have Don Roberts, managing director. Then we have, by video conference from the Université du Québec à Chicoutimi, Réjean Gagnon, professor/researcher and director/coordinator of the Consortium de recherche sur la forêt boréale commerciale, Department of Basic Sciences.

Welcome, everyone.

We will have witnesses make their presentations in the order they are under the orders of the day, starting with John Allan, president and CEO of the Council of Forest Industries.

11:20 a.m.

John Allan President and CEO, Council of Forest Industries

Thank you, Chair and members of the committee, for initiating this important study and for inviting me to appear before you today.

My name is John Allan and I am the president and CEO of the Council of Forest Industries, COFI, president of the B.C. Lumber Trade Council, BCLTC, and secretary of the Canadian Lumber Trade Alliance, CLTA. COFI represents the interests of the B.C. interior forest industry, and BCLTC represents the Canada-U.S. softwood lumber trade interests of the B.C. forest industry, while CLTA does the same on a national basis. I should also disclose that as a former deputy minister of forests in British Columbia, I hope to bring a certain perspective to the presentation that respects the needs of government.

The industry is encouraged by your government's recognition of the economic difficulties confronting Canada's forestry sector. We welcome recent announcements aimed at stimulating the economy and, most importantly, initiatives to assist laid-off workers finding job training. We also applaud the support of all members who have worked tirelessly on behalf of the employees, families, and hundreds of entire communities dependent on the forestry sector. While the recent federal budget will be of some assistance to the forest sector, today I will propose additional measures that require your consideration in tackling the historic challenges faced by our forest industry.

COFI member companies operate 100 production facilities in over 60 forest-dependent communities in the interior of British Columbia, accounting for approximately 80% of all B.C. softwood lumber shipments and 35% of Canadian softwood lumber exports. B.C. forest companies employ approximately 75,000 Canadians, and over 150,000 families directly and indirectly depend on our companies for their livelihood and well-being.

However, a confluence of adverse economic forces, largely beyond anyone's control, has impacted B.C.'s forest sector, threatening its continued viability. Firstly, the rapid appreciation of the Canadian dollar has had a profound impact on the forest industry. A one cent annualized appreciation in the Canadian dollar reduces the annual sales value of all B.C. forest products, the majority of which are exported, by approximately $130 million. Since 2002, the Canadian dollar has risen by about 40 cents compared to the U.S. dollar, and on an accumulated basis this appreciation has stripped $15 billion from the sales value of all forest products from B.C. On an approximate basis, this impact could at least be doubled for all of Canada. It's important to note that this escalation in the value of the dollar has also been accompanied by increased costs of production.

Secondly, the weakening of the U.S. economy and the subprime mortgage issue have negatively impacted the U.S. housing sector, a major export destination for B.C. lumber. U.S. housing starts, which peaked at just over two million units in 2005, are projected at 1.2 million for 2008, their lowest point since 1995. As a result, lumber prices have fallen to extremely low levels, such that on a cash basis today's lumber price results in a $73-per-thousand-board-foot loss for a typical interior sawmill. You might ask, why stay in business? Well, for the immediate term, sawmills are running primarily for cash to pay the bills and to produce chips for pulp and paper mills. In this respect, the industry is extremely integrated, and sawmills and pulp mills cannot operate without each other.

Thirdly, the mountain pine beetle infestation in the interior, and now spreading to Alberta, has destroyed close to 600 million cubic metres of valuable timber and has led to a significant increase in manufacturing costs and a reduction in product value.

Finally, all lumber the B.C. industry ships to the U.S. is subject to a 15% export tax under the softwood lumber agreement.

In short, the industry is in a crisis of unprecedented proportion. As Hank Ketcham, CEO and chair of West Fraser recently said, “It's a bloodbath out there”. In response, we are of the view that neither a hands-off approach nor an interventionist approach based on subsidies is appropriate. Further, the role of government should be to ensure that the correct policy framework is in place to enable a competitive industry.

Accordingly, while the government recognizes the challenges to the viability of the forest sector and has recently implemented or announced some much needed measures, we have five additional proposals for your consideration.

We applaud the government's decision to reduce current corporate taxes by 1% in 2008 and the government's goal of further reducing the corporate tax rate to 15% by 2012. However, we encourage you to accelerate these reductions, especially as the U.S. economy continues to weaken. Reducing corporate tax rates will allow all industries to invest in physical and human capital, to improve efficiencies, and it will temporarily insulate export-dependent sectors from the negative effects of the rapid appreciation in the value of the dollar.

The precipitous decline in U.S. consumption has starkly exposed our vulnerability to single-market dependency. We need to develop a balanced customer base, with particular emphasis on emerging Asian markets. Accordingly, we encourage your government to renew and increase investments in the Canada wood export program, administered by your colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources. This program is the central pillar of the solid wood industry's effort to diversify its offshore export markets for Canadian wood products.

Since its inception in 2002, the Canada wood export program has substantially expanded Canada's lumber exports in traditional and emerging markets. By way of evidence, Canadian shipments by volume to China have increased by 450%, to South Korea by 290%, and to the U.K. by 320%, over the five-year period ending December 2007. As welcome as these results are, new market development is an extended task requiring persistence. We urge the government to commit to a minimum five-year renewal at $10 million per year for the Canada wood export program out to 2014 to enable sustainable and long-term opportunities to be created.

The B.C. forest industry heavily depends on Canada's rail network to transport lumber. However, our rail rates are among the highest in the world. Any government measure to encourage competitive rail rates and reduce transportation costs will contribute to the industry's competitiveness. I am reasonably informed that rail service to interior lumber shippers is poor to non-existent on many occasions.

B.C.'s forest industry is at the forefront of environmental stewardship. In an effort to increase our environmental performance and reduce our carbon footprint, B.C. forest companies have upgraded facilities and implemented innovative processes in a continued effort to limit the sector's climate change impact. We are encouraged that the recent federal budget recognizes the industry's advanced environmental efforts and has accepted our suggestions to profile the industry as leaders in this effort.

The federal budget commitment of $10 million over two years to NRCan to promote Canada's forest sector in international markets as a model of environmental innovation and sustainability is most welcome.The Canadian industry has pledged to become carbon neutral by 2015 and has reduced its greenhouse gas emissions by 50% since 1990. Most importantly, we encourage government to value these efforts in any future government action plan on climate change. In short, we should manage the climate change agenda to improve our competitiveness.

We strongly believe the biomass industry holds enormous potential benefits for the environment, as well as the forest sector and the B.C. pulp and paper sector, which has reduced fossil fuel use by 60% in this regard since 1990. Biomass is a clean, renewable energy resource, and recent studies have demonstrated that biomass fuels can reduce natural gas consumption by up to 75%. We strongly encourage the federal government to work with all stakeholders in further developing the biomass industry. COFI and its members are willing to assist government in this endeavour.

In our view, the five above-mentioned proposals do not contravene the softwood lumber agreement of 2006 and, if implemented, will go a long way to alleviating the convergence of economic forces that have had an overwhelming impact on the viability of B.C.'s and the rest of Canada's forestry sector.

Finally, I want to say a few words in support of the softwood lumber agreement of 2006. Starting with the premise that we will never achieve free trade between Canada and the U.S. in softwood lumber because of the continuing political and legal activities of the U.S. Coalition for Fair Lumber Imports, Canada's softwood lumber exports to the U.S. will be governed by either managed trade or litigation. The agreement provides a far superior alternative to litigation, and the Canadian government, the provincial governments, and the forest industry should collectively strive to ensure that the agreement runs its full course.

Chair, the global demand for forest products is growing as a result of emerging markets in developing countries. This growth is concurrent with an ever-increasing global awareness of the need to purchase products that are produced in an environmentally responsible manner. The simple fact is that the environmental qualities of wood products deem them to be the best building products in the world, bar none. When manufactured in an environmentally responsible manner, wood products, which are not only recyclable but continue to sequester the carbon stored in the trees they were produced from, can play a significant role in the climate change battle. The fact that our industry has evolved into the most environmentally responsible supplier of forest products on the planet deems that Canada deserves to be the global supplier of choice.

I mention this to ensure that government appreciates that our forest sector in Canada can continue to be a major contributor to the economic stability of our country, but we need to carefully manage this period of significant challenges. We need your active participation in surviving this perfect storm of issues we are currently facing and your support in reshaping and rebranding an industry to take advantage of the opportunities ahead of us.

Thank you, and I would be pleased to answer your questions.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Mr. Allan.

We will now go to Mary Granskou--sorry about the pronunciation--from the Canadian Boreal Initiative.

11:30 a.m.

Mary Granskou Senior Policy Advisor, Canadian Boreal Initiative

It's all right. It's quite a unique name.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Yes, it is.

Go ahead, please, for up to 10 minutes. And I apologize for butchering your name.

11:30 a.m.

Senior Policy Advisor, Canadian Boreal Initiative

Mary Granskou

No problem. Thank you very much.

Good morning, Chairman, Vice-Chairs, and members of the committee. We last presented to the committee on the oil sands. We are very pleased to be back here again as you look at this very important issue before you.

Our presentation today will be done mainly in English, because my command of French is limited. However, you do have a French version of the presentation.

I would like to start very briefly with an overview of the Canadian Boreal Initiative. I know that some of you are familiar with us and with our work.

We are about four years old out in the field, and really, our focus is on sustainability. Our focus is on bringing partners together who in previous eras and decades in the Canadian history of forest issues have been on opposite sides of the table. They are now together on the same side of the table proposing and implementing solutions that follow a sustainable path.

We have about 18 members that span the leadership of first nations, industry, the oil, gas, and forestry sectors, and conservation organizations. They are working together to implement solutions.

Our niche is really sustainability. So today we will cover much less the very tragic and important challenges facing the forest sector, which we are very sympathetic towards. We are very supportive of maintaining a vibrant, strong, and sustainable forest industry here in Canada. We think our niche can be helpful in terms of where we are going with sustainability. We are starting to see some real results out there that are helpful economically as well as in other ways for companies in terms of the challenges they face.

Collectively, the Canadian Boreal Initiative and our partners, who fall within a group we call our Boreal Leadership Council, support a balanced approach in Canada's boreal region. We support a path forward that embraces an approach that would see approximately half of Canada's boreal region being protected land of some form and the remaining half, approximately, being under sustainable management. This is a vision that is starting to touch down on the ground in different regions of the country.

We get behind real solutions. Our forestry companies have now ecologically certified, under a certification by the Forest Stewardship Council, over 50 million acres in the boreal region. Canada leads the world on this. We are the leading country that has FSC-certified lands under tenure. We're quite proud of that. We are working on land-use plans across the forest region as well, which I will focus on today.

We work very closely with a number of governments. We've just signed an MOU with the Government of the Northwest Territories, as an example. We are what we call a brokerage for solutions, and we're very happy to be here today.

Here is a snapshot of Canada's boreal region. We are one of three countries in the world that have large tracts of forest and that can still design how we will move into the future with them. The other countries are Brazil and Russia. Canada has probably the best chance of actually moving forward on a sustainable path. We have a responsibility to the world.

Our boreal region covers over half our land mass. It is a place of communities. It is a heartland for jobs in the forest sector. And other opportunities are coming on stream. Boreal ecosystems provide a variety of ecosystem services, such as carbon storage, that have a non-market value that is increasingly being recognized as a market value.

What I'd like to focus on before I move to recommendations, and building on Mr. Allan's presentation, is that slice of the pie that deals with sustainability and where the industry is headed, not only in certifying their forestry operations but in actually securing real markets. I'd like to say today that it's very promising. Moving in the direction of greening their operations is starting to pay off for companies, and they're actually better able to buffer the crisis that's now before us.

I'd like to give one very practical example. Last week Tembec Inc., one of our lead partners on forestry—the other two are Domtar and Al-Pac—announced a radical restructuring. I'm sure many of you noticed the news reports that came out on that last week. They cited that their environmentally friendly product approach helped them stay afloat. They cited that their contract with Home Depot, which is the biggest buyer of lumber in North America, was one of the things that allowed them to buffer the decline on the dollar, in particular, because they're offering a certified product. Their product is less vulnerable to the decline in the dollar because they secured their purchaser, which is Home Depot. Home Depot will stay with them even through a declining dollar. It had a huge impact on their ability to stay afloat.

They now want to be the global FSC giant, and they're headed in that direction. That move by Tembec was not an easy move. As recently as two years ago, they didn't have a secured market and secured buyers, particularly in the U.S., and they had invested $50 million and weren't yet seeing the market returns. So we give them a lot of credit for moving through a time of uncertainty and sticking with their FSE commitments, to see them through, to allow them to be more secure, and that's where they are today.

Another example is Cascade. In their fine paper line, their sales jumped 235% in the last year, and there are similar stories with Domtar.

What we are trying to say here is that sustainability is paying off in very real ways for companies. We recognize it still is a niche, but it is a very important one to recognize as you look at your study, considering the market opportunities and the market niches coming out of this.

In terms of our recommendations, we'd like to focus on a few areas that our colleagues may or may not be raising here today. They are really in two areas. One is land use planning and the second is the market for carbon. We'd like to stress those two here today.

First, on the supports for land use planning, land use planning is an exercise by which industry, first nations, conservation organizations, and governments sit around a table to plan in an area what areas are going to be open for resource development and what areas are to be protected over the longer term.

These kinds of fundamentally important planning exercises right now are covering about 60% of the boreal region. The federal government used to be a strong supporter of this type of work, and it really has backed away from that. We would like to recommend that you look at encouraging the reinstating of support for land use planning at the federal level. The reason we say this is that conflict across land uses increases the cost to industry, it is very troubling for first nations communities that are really looking to assert their treaty and aboriginal rights, and it's the fundamentally important type of decisions that support the sector being strong and the business certainty that is needed in order to operate, particularly in today's world. That is why the Canadian Boreal Initiative and the Forest Products Association of Canada released a joint statement last year calling on governments to support land use planning.

In terms of our recommendations, we recommend the committee support significantly increased federal funding for regional land use planning, in collaboration with the provinces and territories, aboriginal people, and stakeholders.

Our second recommendation—and I know it is not a new area for the committee—has to do with how we support carbon-friendly forestry and carbon offsets.

We are very quickly reaching a time when forest carbon is going to have a market value, and we'd like to promote that this is a tool that the federal government can, should be, and needs to be supporting. B.C. and Ontario are already there, and we need leadership at the federal level and from the standing committee to move forward in that area. Simply put—we have more details in our brief—there are two different kinds of mechanisms that can be supported that protect the carbon values in the land base, which are very significant. In fact, the boreal region around the northern part of the world has more carbon locked up in the land than any other ecosystem type in the world.

I'm getting the wrap-up signal from the chair.

The two types are carbon offsets for protection purposes and sustainable forestry. We can explore that more through our questions, but we would very much like to encourage the committee to support these types of offsets as a way of bringing another dollar to the table. The benefits could be accrued by the forest sector--by first nations in particular--and are helpful particularly if you think of areas that are a long haul distance from mills, areas that might have a better value on a carbon market than they might on a forestry market.

The recommendations are, first, to support those mechanisms for carbon management on the land, and second, for Canada to take a proactive position in international climate change negotiations to include mechanisms to protect carbon values in forest and peat lands in any climate change mitigation regime globally moving forward.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Ms. Granskou, for your presentation.

We'll go now to Don Roberts, managing director of CIBC World Markets.

Go ahead, Mr. Roberts, please. You have up to 10 minutes.

11:45 a.m.

Don Roberts Managing Director, CIBC World Markets

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and committee members. Thank you for having me here.

I should state at the outset that I wear an investment hat. I lead the group at CIBC World Markets, dealing with investments in the forest sector as well as the bioenergy sector. My job is to essentially advise investors where in the world they should put their money in the forest products sectors. It may be Canada; it may be elsewhere.

Having said that, I also work with governments as to where and what they can do to attract investments. Right now I'm working with the Government of New Brunswick, leading a task force to attract investment. As well, I'm working with the Government of Russia.

We're in interesting times here. The changes we're seeing in the global forest products industry, not just the industry but the markets for forest products as well as the public policy in this sector, are arguably the most profound we've seen since the end of the colonial era. They're dramatic. We're truly living in interesting times.

On the one hand, this is not just the importance of non-market goods and services, at least traditionally non-market—and I underscore what my colleague just mentioned—it's also the competition for electronic media and the emergence of new competitors and changes in actually who owns the timberland. These changes are occurring around the world, not just here.

What's interesting is that these changes are occurring at a time when arguably there has been a meaningful degradation or analytical capability to assess this. This is true both in the public sector and the private sector. We're too busy fighting the alligators. Again, this is not just true in Canada. We see it in Russia, in Brazil, and around the world. That's a concern. The fact that you're looking at this, and hopefully in a very thoughtful manner, is very encouraging.

The Canadian industry has been hit by a series of shocks. My colleague John Allan has enumerated them. I won't got through them here. We should recognize that some of these are clearly beyond our control, like the changes in technology on the paper side. We have to shut down newsprint capacity when our consumption has dropped in North America by 30% since the year 2000. That's the reality of the market. If you prop up some of the mills that were least competitive, it means down the road that even your good mills will go down. It doesn't mean we can't play a positive role in helping communities to adjust. We should. But some of these things are beyond our control. We should recognize that.

A key challenge facing this industry over time is the fact that unlike most basic materials, we've actually seen a decrease in the price of wood. The markets are suggesting that it was worth less over time. Notice I used the words “was decreasing”. We're at an interesting inflection point right now. In our view, there are five reasons that are going to cause a long-term rise—I mean 10 to 15 years—in the real price of wood. I'm certainly humbled when I look at beyond that.

I'll quickly mention these five reasons. We bear these in mind because they're shaping the environment for this export-oriented industry.

The first is the growing fibre deficit in Asia. It's dramatic. It's not just China; it's India as well. We can go on about that at length if you're interested.

The second is what's happening in Russia with their log export tax. This country is truly a sleeping giant in this sector. It has forest resources that are bigger than Canada and Brazil combined. They supply 40% of the world's exports of softwood logs, and they're about to stop. They're scheduling up to an 80% tax on the export of logs. This shock will reverberate throughout the global industry.

The third shock is a reduction in the supply of illegal logging. We don't often talk about that in Canada, but to give you a sense, roughly 10% of the world's harvest of logs is estimated to be illegal. Almost by definition, it's unsustainable. When you illegally harvest, you're not going to stick around and plant. This has stopped, to some extent; it hasn't stopped completely, but it is coming down. And we can tell you why. This is maybe one of the reasons we saw the real price of wood come down: they were cutting too much in places like Indonesia, Brazil, China, etc.

The fourth reason is this travesty that's happened in British Columbia with the mountain pine beetle. This has global implications. It's a region that supplies 20% of the U.S.'s lumber, and we're seeing a dramatic fall-down in this over time.

Our sense is that both the quantity and the quality impacts have been understated, both by government and by industry. This will create winners and it will create losers, but we should be aware of its global implications.

The last shock is perhaps the most fundamental, and this is really what we call the convergence of the food, fuel, and fibre markets. By fibre I mean wood. The connection is largely driven by energy.

In what sense do I mean convergence? I mean convergence in the sense that the feedstocks for these three sectors—food, fuel, and fibre—will over time tend to trade on the basis of their energy equivalency. This means you're going to have a floor price and lower-quality wood. I don't mean for your sawlogs. Energy will never be able to outbid a sawmill, but it can outbid other folks.

One of the things we should bear in mind here is that the implications of this convergence—and we can go into the question and answer if you're interested—are that we're going to have to stop thinking inside our traditional silos: agriculture, forestry, energy. They're going to move together. Do I really underline the point made by my colleague who just spoke on the need for coordinated land use planning. Otherwise we will have increasing battlefields. We can talk about that a little bit, but that is going to be one of the issues.

Before we get into that, I just want to make one comment. Why is land kept in forestry? I would argue there are two reasons. One is that governments say there's some good or service that is not captured by the market but that they want preserved. It may be deer. It may be recreation. It may be carbon. So we make that government decision. The second reason land stays under forestry is that it cannot make it in agriculture.

What we're going to see with this convergence, with increasing prices of food, fuel, and fibre, is that in our main competing regions—and this is the good news for us—a lot of land is going to shift out of forestry into food, into biomass. That means to some extent that we may well see this comparative shift we've seen over the last 10 to 15 years, from the northern hemisphere—from countries like Canada—down to the south, reverse itself.

You will continue to have an absolute advantage in growing trees in Brazil. My goodness, we can almost hear those trees grow.

Having said that, the competitive advantage, the comparative advantage, could well shift back to us. I shouldn't say that. I should say the northern hemisphere, because it may not come back to us. We're quite confident it will go to the United States. We think Russia will have a good shot at it. Canada may or may not. One of the aces we can play in that, especially with regard to the Russians, is our ability to sustainably manage it. We want to market that aspect. Again, I echo my colleague who spoke previously. That's an important issue.

One of the messages is that our public forests are going to become more valuable over time, for a host of reasons, not just the market. The value of the tree is going to go up, but also of some of these non-market goods. We should capture that.

Having said that, we can go into some of the implications of this convergence—the analytical implications, the organizational, the policy, and the investment implications—in the question and answer period, because they are worth exploring a little. But let's just get on for a moment and stress that there are no silver bullets as we move on here. If there were—we're smart enough—we would have found them.

We're going to have to have a thoughtful response. The government response here, I may suggest, is first of all to recognize at the start that we're traditionally not very good at picking winners, but that losers are generally pretty good at picking governments.

So we have to be a little bit careful in terms of our ability to out-think the market. What we can do is clearly intervene when the market fails. Carbon is a feature of this sector. It's a real economic good, which is not captured in the market yet. We should see what's going on. We're lagging in this area. It's coming at us. We have to understand that carbon will be priced, and when Washington makes the decision to do that, my sense is that business will insist that Ottawa do it within a nanosecond.

The nature of the game is changing here, though. We have to look at R and D. We have to change the nature of our game. One of the things I would suggest is—this isn't a short-term solution—to look at longer-term commitments to R and D. And it's not just R and D—research and development. It's RD and D—research, development, and deployment. One of the things we find is that given our small size—and believe me, our companies are small on a global scale—our companies lack economies of scale. Where economies of scale are most important in this industry is in things like marketing and R and D.

We can't take the risk, especially on some of these emerging technologies. That's a role for government here to support. I did most of my training at the University of Chicago. I believe in markets. But there's a role for government in that area.

Also, come out and recognize here that when you do your R and D work, you shouldn't dilute your efforts. One of the things I am concerned with is spreading ourselves too thin.

We can talk about the bioenergy, if there are any specific comments, or the low-tech or high-tech responses, but I'll turn it over to the chairman.

Thank you.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Mr. Roberts, for your presentation.

We now go by video conference to Réjean Gagnon, a professor from the Université du Québec à Chicoutimi.

Go ahead, please.

March 4th, 2008 / 11:55 a.m.

Réjean Gagnon Professor/Researcher and Director/Coordinator of the consortium de recherche sur la forêt boréale commerciale (CRFBC) , Department of Basic Sciences, Université du Québec à Chicoutimi

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Réjean Gagnon and I work at the Université du Québec à Chicoutimi, where I am Director of the Consortium de recherche sur la forêt boréale commerciale.

The main objective of our research work is to ensure resource sustainability. We are specialists in natural forest regeneration as well as in the environmental parameters that influence tree growth. Our work is mainly concentrated on the forests of Eastern Canada. One of the characteristics of Eastern Canada is the presence of a particular species, the black spruce. We are specialized in the growth of this species. The black spruce is very abundant in Eastern Canada, but it is rare elsewhere in the world. It is a strictly North American species and the largest stands of black spruce in the world are found in Eastern Canada. This is why our university has become a specialist on the parameters and ecology of these forests.

I wish to thank the members of the Committee for having given me the opportunity to speak to you today. As a biologist and ecologist, I am very concerned by the fact that in a not too distant future — we are talking here of 2050 —, there will probably be nine billion people living on this earth. At present, our access to an abundant natural resource, oil, ensures our affluence and offers us many possibilities, but this resource is not renewable and we can of course not base our country's development on it. We are going to need oil, but it is not a renewable resource.

This is why most of my work pertains to forests. We know that the forest is a natural and renewable resource.

In our view, wood is our material of choice environmentally speaking. Indeed, as everyone has said, it is non-toxic, it captures CO2, it is renewable, recyclable and compostable, and it is an abundant source of materials such as paper, cardboard, lumber, firewood and biomass. This material also feeds our cogeneration plants and we will also be able down the road to produce cellulosic ethanol and all kinds of other such products.

The main question is that of knowing if the wood harvesting methods used today will guarantee us supply in the future. We of course have many concerns in this regard.

You may have seen a film that shows forests that do not renew themselves after a cut. The title of the film is L'Erreur boréale, and it is by Richard Desjardins. I do not know if any of you have had the opportunity to see this film. Upon seeing the film, one could have the impression that forestry has no future. We must not forget that this film was not about forestry, but was rather an anticapitalist indictment. The film uses the forest industry to show that unbridled capitalism has no place in Canada. The film also questions the social acceptability of wood harvesting. Here, out East, and more particularly in Quebec, we are asking ourselves many such questions.

Generally speaking, people are not that much in favour of wood harvesting. You have to find ways to convince our people that trees can be harvested. I believe that in order to do that, people must understand what wood is used for. Wood must not serve only to fill the pockets of big companies, and people must also see that wood is our best environmental choice.

Here, the situation is somewhat different compared with what exists elsewhere in the world. In Quebec, we mainly work with natural regeneration. Close to 80% of our forests naturally regenerate themselves. One of the consequences of this situation is that we do not practice intensive forestry. Our forests' productivity is not that high because we rely mainly on natural regeneration.

Our aim is to put back into production our forests as they exist today. We however work with a natural process, the great advantage of which is that it maintains the original species and allows for their generation from local parent trees. In terms of the maintenance of biodiversity, Quebec's tree harvesting is in a good position. It is a good starting point. We do not have too much difficulty maintaining species.

In Eastern Canada, we have been harvesting trees for more than 100 years. In your opinion, how many species, both plant and animal, have disappeared through tree harvesting? Would it be two, five or eight species? According to biologists, no plant nor animal species has disappeared due to tree harvesting. That does not mean that no species has disappeared for other reasons, for example trapping.

In boreal forests, there is a natural problem, that of fires. I know that many fires occur in Western Canada and in other regions of the country, but there a lot of forest fires in Eastern Canada. One species in particular, the black spruce, has adapted to fire, but this adaptation is not very good. Consequently, if the rate of occurrence becomes too high, this species will regress. According to our recent studies, packed black spruce forests have regressed by 9% over the last 50 years, becoming open woodland areas. This rate is extremely high and rather exceptional. This is however a natural regression, and I wish to insist upon that fact. It is natural: it is not due to forest harvesting but to frequent forest fires.

We have developed tools for reforestation. With regard to CO2 fixation, much of our lands that are today considered to be unproductive could be put back into production. We could book them as new lands for CO2 sequestration.

Our main challenge in Quebec is La Relève, those who will replace us. Few students are interested in the forestry sector. Very few young people are signing up in our schools to become forestry technicians or engineers. We see the same problem with wood processing training. This is why we have for five or six years now been predicting a real labour shortage. Furthermore, we are most certainly going to be faced with a similar problem in Eastern Canada in the area of forestry research and other specialized forest-related disciplines.

In closing, I would recommend that the Canadian government encourage, through all the means at its disposal, the use of wood in the construction of both public and commercial buildings.

Thank you.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Merci, Monsieur Gagnon.

We'll now go directly to questioning, to Mr. Boshcoff, for up to seven minutes.

Go ahead, please.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I have two questions, and I will direct the first one to Mr. Allan and the second to the Boreal Initiative representative.

Mr. Allan—and please, other representatives can feel free to try to address these two questions—in terms of regional transportation, we mentioned rail rates. You described the service in British Columbia as being either poor or non-existent, and I would suspect a lot of that was directed to non-main-line service.

Would you think the same situation should apply to main-line services? In particular, I guess you could say the rail companies really have a monopoly, although there may be two, or short-line railways, in addition. When a company needs, say, pulp cars, when they need them fast, when they're expecting a turnaround and are forced to go into storage, this seems almost whimsical or uncaring in terms of railway servicing. Companies in the forest industry are already having a difficult enough time when they're actually forced to shut down a mill because they can't get railcars. How are we going to overcome something as fundamental as that to a nation when we talk about all those solutions you've proposed?

The second one—perhaps, to you, Mrs. Granskou—is the certification question. Right now in Ontario the province has agreed to the forest stewardship, yet there is nowhere in Ontario that this can be sourced or agreed upon, even after millions of trees have been planted in the province—and “millions” is an understatement. We already have in Canada the Canadian Standards Association and the sustainable forest initiative. So the question is, how can forest companies that are trying to meet the ISO and all these other types of standards get another standard and say, okay, those are fine, but we have another one for you? How can a company keep adapting? It's almost like the bureaucracy is adding another level to them after they've complied.

Perhaps the other presenters would also like to try to address those two questions.

Thank you very much.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Allan, go ahead with the answer to the first question, and then Mrs. Granskou.

12:05 p.m.

President and CEO, Council of Forest Industries

John Allan

Thank you.

On the question of rail service, I was referring mostly to what I would call main-line service, and specifically CN service. I have a number of members in these associations that I'm responsible for who consistently tell me, on a regular basis, that rail service is very poor. Cars are ordered and don't show up.

As you mentioned, cars are put in storage, and they can see these cars sitting idly by while they cannot get their product to market. It's a very frustrating situation for most companies. Lumber deliveries are scheduled on a regular basis, as everyone knows, and the fact that you can't get your lumber to market on a timely basis results in added costs and foregone revenue.

I know you've heard from FPAC on this issue. It's a national issue. I just want to alert the committee here, the members here today, that some serious attention needs to be paid to what is a monopoly service, and a very poor one at that, according to the members I work for.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Allan.

Mrs. Granskou.

12:05 p.m.

Senior Policy Advisor, Canadian Boreal Initiative

Mary Granskou

You raised a good question on certification. Obviously if there's one standard, it's a lot easier for the market to deal with than if there are three or four. I think over time we'll find that there will be a lead standard. The one of choice with our partners is the Forest Stewardship Council, for two obvious reasons. One is that it mandates third-party monitoring and verification of a forestry operation, and the second is that the standard was developed with a very broad consultative process, from first nations to industry to environmental groups. There is the greatest faith in its ability to actually deliver real results, and that's what they selected.

In terms of Ontario's decision to support the FSC paper, they have said they will procure up to 30% of government paper supplies from FSC producers. There are actually many acres under FSC production in Ontario, and Tembec is leading on that. Our producers are confident they can meet the supply or they wouldn't have encouraged Ontario to adopt that policy.

In terms of certification, when you certify the forest, how do you get it to market? Our partners are putting their cards.... And this goes for the forestry companies in FSC, because there are parties that are involved that help them get their paper and products to market. Those are very much the environmental groups that often put pressure on a retailer like Home Depot and encourage them to move forward. We have all these folks around our table, and as you can imagine, the conversations can get very interesting. What's happening is that former opponents are supporting moving in the same direction.

Does that answer your question?

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

It does.

I guess some organizations may feel we're creating another trade barrier within our own country, particularly Ontario, and second, internationally, in terms of our ability to export, whereas, to paraphrase, they already feel that Canada is an international leader in terms of sustainability, replanting, forest stewardship, and those types of things.

I come from the boreal forest. When you see the changes from when I was younger that the industry has complied with in terms of its emissions, I see enormous progress and optimism.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Boshcoff. Your time is up.

Monsieur Ouellet, for seven minutes.

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Roberts, it seemed to me that you had a rather holistic approach to energy and forests. I would like to know if, in your opinion, we should continue to try and develop our international markets in particular, which are mainly with the United States, although, in the case of paper, our market is the entire world, or if we should use our forests as an unending supply of energy to both fill our energy needs and replace those non-renewable energy sources that we presently purchase elsewhere. Allow me to give you an example.

In Quebec, 90% of our oil comes from very far away, from unstable countries, and our natural gas comes from elsewhere. However, we have an extraordinary forest that is a phenomenal source of energy, especially in terms of biomass, but we are selling it to foreign countries.

In your opinion, what should we be aiming for?

12:10 p.m.

Managing Director, CIBC World Markets

Don Roberts

It's a very good question.

Let me give you some numbers from Europe--and they will vary to North America's. In Europe they've looked at taking a given cubic metre of wood and asking, do we put it into bioenergy or do we put it into pulp and paper? The interesting numbers are that in terms of GDP, you get a GDP multiplier eight times greater in pulp and paper than in bioenergy, and for employment, it's 13 times greater.

In terms of the number of metrics that we care about as communities, the pulp and paper, which often we'll put into the export market, has actually generated more activity at home. That being said, we are looking at bioenergy for a whole host of reasons, mostly dealing with anxiety, and that anxiety is partly, as you mentioned, energy security. It's dealing with environmental security, political security—we want to get activity in the communities that have fallen.

I think the reality right now is that we have to take a fairly dispassionate look at this—what makes sense right now economically. There is a whole host of energy products we could make, from the low-technology pellets to the higher-technology cellulosic ethanol bio-refiners. There's no one answer, but I can give you a quick gut response.

In terms of our high-tech use of the forest for energy or biochemicals, we are really five to seven years away from commercialization. We can't make money right now, which is one of the roles we want for the R and D, to help us understand how to do this in a more cost-effective way.

Scale is also very important when we look at this, because when we are looking at cellulosic ethanol.... The first plant that is going to be built in North America is going to be in the state of Georgia. It's 100 million gallons. It requires--

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Allow me to interrupt you. I did not think that you would talk mostly about biofuels, and more particularly biodiesel. I thought that you were rather going to talk about the biomass that we could use directly, without any processing, as close as possible to where it is produced. That is what some researchers at Hydro-Quebec are proposing. This technique is used in Vermont, where super-boilers are used. Vermont indeed uses its biomass without processing, as clean energy. I am in agreement with you in saying that with processing there is a certain loss of energy. It becomes an alternative energy. I thought that you would talk to us about that energy which is taken directly at source.

12:15 p.m.

Managing Director, CIBC World Markets

Don Roberts

Essentially, we can use it in cogeneration plants--biomass into coal-fired power plants is one way.

The reason I mentioned the ethanols and so forth is because we really have the need for two types of energy: the transportation fuels--gases and diesel--which are highly polluting; and the second is where we could substitute for coal in some areas. Biomass, as a way to feed into generationable electricity, is certainly an option.

What I would say is that in Quebec there is less of an incentive to do it than in most places, as in British Columbia. The reason is that the price of your hydroelectricity is already so low. There is more of an incentive to do that in Ontario, where we will see that come off, but it's one of the reasons why we won't see this occur in Russia as well—hydroelectricity is too low.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

I was not talking about producing electricity, but rather of heating buildings directly, as it is done in the State of Vermont. The people at Hydro-Quebec believe that we should not be producing electricity from biomass, but rather using it directly for heating purposes.

12:15 p.m.

Managing Director, CIBC World Markets

Don Roberts

There are three ways in which you can use this. One is the commercial power plants, which use the electricity. The second is district heating units. Everywhere you have a hospital or a university is a potential use. This is what we see in Europe--about 30% of the demand is for that, absolutely. But it's quite small-scale. We have more than enough biomass to deal with that use, but that's not where we're....

The third alternative is in residential, where people essentially use wood pellets, and that's an option as well. You need a fairly significant infrastructure to move it. We have it in parts of Europe. It makes a lot more sense to use it here, perhaps, than shipping it all the way over to Europe, which is not a good economic proposition--and I can say that confidently. But in terms of district heating units, I expect we will see more of that over time, and key is going to be the cost of getting that biomass to those heating units. For other parts of the country, it doesn't have to be from wood; you can use this from other feedstocks as well.