Evidence of meeting #22 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sands.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Heather Kennedy  Vice-President, Government Relations, Business Services, Suncor Energy Inc.
Ron Watkins  President, Canadian Steel Producers Association
George Mallay  General Manager, Sarnia-Lambton Economic Partnership
Normand Mousseau  Professor, Université de Montréal, Department of Physics, As an Individual
Andrew Leach  Associate Professor, Author, Alberta School of Business, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Jean Côté  Vice-President, Montreal Refinery, Refining and Marketing, Suncor Energy Inc.
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Rémi Bourgault

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Actually, you're out of time, Mr. Trost, so I guess we'll have to leave the answer at that.

We'll end the meeting in terms of questions and comments with Ms. Charlton, with up to five minutes.

We'll need a couple of minutes at the end to discuss the issue of whether we invite Pacific NorthWest LNG and Progress Energy as one group of witnesses, and also the Business Council of British Columbia. They have both requested that they appear before the committee. Very quickly, without getting into discussion at the end of the committee, I hope we can decide whether there's a way we can make that work or not.

Ms. Charlton, for up to five minutes.

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

First, I would like to ask Mr. Leach a question. You threw a proposition out there that's a myth, as you rightly identify, that's been out there for a very long time, and that is, that Canadians must choose between oil sands development and concrete action on tackling climate change. You're right that it is a pervasive myth out there. I just wonder whether you want to say a few additional words on dispelling that myth.

10:35 a.m.

Associate Professor, Author, Alberta School of Business, University of Alberta, As an Individual

Dr. Andrew Leach

Sure, I'd love to.

First, in response to some of the comments that have made around the table this morning, to say that oil sands and climate policy aren't related would be wrong. There's certainly significant potential cost to the oil sands industry from carbon policy. So it's not going to necessarily derail all projects, but it does have a significant material cost.

What I do think risks having larger material costs are some of the policies like we've seen from the European Union, for example, that discriminate specifically against oil sands. I think when we talk about, and when people put out that trade-off and say, basically, as some have said that carbon taxes or carbon policy would destroy our industry, what they're basically doing is giving food to those people who would oppose the industry. They're feeding directly into what the opponents of oil sands and Canada's oil industry are telling their supporters. They're saying, “This industry is not compatible with climate change policy. Therefore you should protest against it. You should shut it down.”

Canada needs to respond by being able to say, not just, “Here's what our policy is. Here's what our goals are,” but showing the world how that policy and those goals fit in with global climate change goals that our Prime Minister and others have signed on to, and it's possible to do that.

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

Right, because I think it is possible to sustainably develop the oil sands.

I want to go somewhere else with Ms. Kennedy, if I could.

When people normally think about government support for the oil sands, they think very specifically about supports for the energy sector. You've done it already a bit by talking about investment in things like skills training and help on labour mobility issues. I had the privilege of being up in Fort McMurray and noticed that there's a bunch of other significant challenges in the community that support oil sands development, for example, housing, and the absence of housing. I wonder whether you could take a bit of a broader look at what kinds of supports are important to continue to sustainably develop the oil sands.

10:40 a.m.

Vice-President, Government Relations, Business Services, Suncor Energy Inc.

Heather Kennedy

On the social side of things, I think back to the start of Fort McMurray, which of course was there many centuries ago, through when Great Canadian Oil Sands came, and then Syncrude, and then most recently, the latest kind of growth spurt in the mid-1990s and 2000s. It is a town that grows incrementally, so there are step changes.

One of the things I think the Alberta government has done particularly well recently is to create regional planning and actual infrastructure plans for the high-growth regions in the province. That's allowed it to become very clear about what's required in terms of land release, housing development, and infrastructure, and also what's required in terms of getting people to live and work there. It's one thing for the oil sands companies to have their engineers and their spouses come up there and work and do their thing, but you need to have teachers, and nurses, and people to work at McDonald's, and all of those things. So actually planning for it, I think, is quite important.

When I consider, as a Canadian, the Ring of Fire, or even the LNG opportunities in northeastern British Columbia, that's an area where governments need to say that if they're going to do this, it isn't all about how they extract the resource; it is about determining what is actually needed to make sure it's healthy and vibrant and that the benefits are maximized for the community. It was a little late in coming to Fort McMurray, but it's there now.

I would say that the federal government's role is to look at that, to view it, and to see if there are opportunities where they can participate. They're a strong participant in the colleges, in the skills development, and that's been very critical. It's really about planning and it's about accepting and understanding that the social side of things is really critical in a community like Fort McMurray.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

I think I saw Mr. Watkins nod, especially when you talked about infrastructure, because of course that kind of investment in infrastructure will again have a spinoff benefit for your industry, right?

10:40 a.m.

President, Canadian Steel Producers Association

Ron Watkins

Yes, right.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

Do you want to add anything to the comments about those investments?

10:40 a.m.

President, Canadian Steel Producers Association

Ron Watkins

I think the points made by Ms. Kennedy are, from my point of view, spot on. The planned development of the resources, the infrastructure, and so on is obviously good from a steel consumption point of view, but in a sense the predictability of it also becomes important as people try to stage their production and investment decisions looking forward.

We as an industry need to understand much more about that. In fact, we're going to hold our next board meeting partly in Fort McMurray directly for that purpose.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

I think if we had the Federation of Canadian Municipalities here, they too would agree that federal support for infrastructure would be badly needed.

I thank you for your testimony.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Ms. Charlton.

I want to thank all of our witnesses very much for being here and for their presentations and for their answers to the questions from committee members. Heather Kennedy from Suncor, Jean Côté from Montreal Refinery, Ron Watkins from the Canadian Steel Producers Association, by video conference as an individual, Normand Mousseau, and as an individual, Andrew Leach from the Alberta School of Business, thank you all very much. Your input has been helpful and it will add to our study greatly.

To committee members, we'll very quickly see if there's a willingness or a desire to accommodate the requests of two groups of witnesses. The first is Pacific NorthWest LNG and Progress Energy, which are both involved in one of the three leading most advanced natural gas exporting facilities. The second is the Business Council of British Columbia.

Ms. Block.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

What I would like to know from you, Mr. Chair, is can this work with what's already been scheduled next week to include these witnesses in the next two days of meetings that we have?

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

We know for the last day, we've only had two witnesses so far who have agreed to come. Even on Tuesday, we certainly could add.... I understand that the witness from Progress Energy could appear Tuesday as well, so we could accommodate on either day for that.

I don't know if the Business Council of British Columbia could come on Thursday. We have to find out if it can be by video conference. You'd think it would be possible. They certainly expressed a keen interest in coming.

Ms. Charlton.

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

Chair, I don't have a problem with that. I'm late to this game here. But there are a number of witnesses who we had put forward as well who haven't appeared on our witness list. I wonder, if we're going to add witnesses now, whether we could just add some of the ones we had put forward as well instead of just adding three others to the list. Is there some rhyme or reason why it's those but not others?

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

They've made a request. That's why I brought it to the committee, and there are lots on our list, the list presented by the government side, who couldn't appear either.

Ms. Block.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

I would ask the clerk to speak to Ms. Charlton's questions around that, whether or not those witnesses were not able to appear or whether they declined to appear. As the chair has pointed out, not all of our witnesses managed to make it either.

Perhaps the clerk could let us know what attempts were made and whether or not there were some witnesses who just couldn't make this work.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Do you want to comment on that for me?

April 3rd, 2014 / 10:45 a.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Rémi Bourgault

It depends on exactly who you are talking about, Ms. Charlton.

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

As all of us do, we submit longer lists to make sure that there are lots to draw from in the slots that are available. We understand that not everybody is available at the drop of a hat, which of course is fair game, but now that we're expanding the witness list, all I'm asking is that, if we're including the three witnesses who have contacted us, whether we can also go back to this list and include a couple from our list as well, just to get a balanced perspective before the committee.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

I would argue the point whether these witnesses should be considered government witnesses or not.

Mr. Trost, we have to deal with this very quickly. Maybe I shouldn't have gotten into it today. I thought it could be handled quickly.

Go ahead, Mr. Trost.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Mr. Chair, I'm trying to remember exactly what the agreement was on this, but if we do start to open this up, it could start setting a precedent.

I think Ms. Charlton has a fairly valid point about people who may have wanted to be invited by one side or the other. I don't think this is what happened here, but in theory you can see that people inviting themselves in sort of a back way favouring one side or the other.

What I would say is that I always welcome written submissions by everyone. I'm a little concerned. I'm not 100% opposed, but I am a little concerned that this could start set a precedent and cause some more functionality to break down.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

We had agreed to submit our witness list by a certain time and choose witnesses from that list, so that is what we've done.

I think these would be great witnesses, but I think we're going to have to agree to just leave things as they are and invite those witnesses, along with others, to present a brief if they would like to do so. Very good.

We'll be back on Tuesday with further witnesses for this study.

I thank you all very much for your input today.

This meeting is adjourned.