Official Languages Committee on April 1st, 2008

[Fernand Denault]

The thought of burdening groups with funding themselves completely is illogical and irresponsible. That leads to more problems. We can compare ourselves to other countries that take similar action and where progress is very slow. We thought we had something special in our country, but we see that it was perhaps less than what we had imagined.

The program was, however, a positive stress. Stress is good, it is not bad. You learn that, especially when you experience a lot of it in life. Some kinds of stress are positive, others are negative, but that program is a positive stress. Things can happen unexpectedly, but if we do not fulfil our duties, whether we like it or not a mechanism to bring us back in line is a good thing. If that mechanism is removed, that may mean that we do not want to be brought into line.

The program should be improved. It was small, before.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

I am very familiar with these cases, and I know they cost a fortune.

Mr. Desgagné, you wanted to add something.

[Denis Desgagné]

Why fix something that is not broken? If something is not working, then just tell us. We know—and I think that we mentioned this—that there have been extraordinary results for linguistic duality. Where is the problem? Why change it?

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Mulcair.

We are now moving to the last round, for those who indicated they wanted to ask questions.

Mr. Rodriguez, you have the floor.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I won't be long, Mr. Chairman.

I am happy that Mr. Denault raised the legal issue. I chaired the Standing Committee on Official Languages two years ago, when we adopted Bill S-3 following numerous debates, and I don't get the sense that that has changed anything to date. I don't see the implementation of that component. I don't know how it is for you. I don't see the act's implementation mechanism and its implementation, do you?

[Fernand Denault]

We are trying to identify the positive steps taken in the various departments. We are just starting the exercise. To date, it is not very encouraging. There does not seem to be a link between the policy decision and departmental administration. A lot of work remains to be done in that regard.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you.

[Denis Desgagné]

I think we have gone backwards. In the past, the Learning and Innovation Seed Fund made it possible, mainly in Saskatchewan, to truly examine these issues with the federal council and to show leadership. Unfortunately, since the elimination of the Learning and Innovation Seed Fund, the committee is virtually non-existent. So we can't talk to those people about part VII of the Official Languages Act.

We cannot speak for anyone else, but in Saskatchewan, we have taken a step backwards and we are obliged, in addition to doing the administrative work, to ask people to prepare well defined demands and to document them well to show that no concrete steps have been taken with respect to part VII. Moreover, that aspect is in part VII, but there are no regulations as such. So we are in something of a vacuum.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

My last question will be brief. You talked about access to TV, and so on. Will everyone be able to watch the Olympic Games in French in Saskatchewan?

[Denis Desgagné]

Yes, everyone will be able to see them.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Is that only if you have cable?

[Denis Desgagné]

No, with a satellite, we will have access to the Olympic Games in French.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

In French. Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Mr. Nadeau, you had started to—

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Yes. There is the interdepartmental aspect. I remember that Mr. Paul-André Baril, who worked at the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne, worked on this file. I saw it occasionally. What is the status of that file? Can we believe that one day, all of the departments of the Government of Canada will serve the communities? It was always offloaded on the Secretary of State, at the time, and on the Department of Canadian Heritage today. Will all departments have clearly defined duties to meet these needs as they are expressed?

[Denis Desgagné]

It is a necessity. It has to happen. That is what we gave you earlier. As a matter of fact, I will give you the documents that I was not able to submit in both languages. Even the officials of the Department of Canadian Heritage who work in our area, who have inter-ministerial responsibility, could do so with the Innovation Fund. Without the Innovation Fund, they are isolated; they're in a silo. The Privy Council Office, a central agency, had a mandate to ensure this inter-ministerial action; it was a step backward to give this responsibility to the Department of Canadian Heritage, in its own silo. The problem is not the department; it's the fact that they're working in isolation. It's very difficult to go from the Department of Canadian Heritage to Industry Canada, for example, and lead these people to play their role from an inter-departmental standpoint. Unfortunately, the officials we call coordinators 41, who are responsible for the Official Languages Act in different silos, are minor officers who sometimes speak French and who inherit this file in addition to their other tasks. This is not too good. If there is really a will to bring about change, another mechanism will have to be put in place.

[Fernand Denault]

First and foremost, this mechanism would have to ensure that the will of the minister responsible truly exists and that he endorses the obligations that the House of Commons took on. Then, there would have to be administrative and departmental policies in place to disseminate this fact and ensure that we're not so far from the goal.

Earlier, we referred to coordinators 41. That was before your new obligations. Things are different now. One really can't say that ministers are assuming their responsibilities on this front.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I presume that you sincerely hope that the new Action Plan for Official Languages will include that exercise, namely that the inter-departmental aspect becomes a reality rather than always being part of government plans. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much. We are nearing the conclusion of our...

Mr. Harvey, you'd like a last word?

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Earlier, you referred to distribution per capita only, without really calculating according to population. I don't know if you have received a copy of this document on the distribution of grants and contributions of $25,000 or more allocated to francophone minority community groups.

In Quebec, the anglophone community is made up of about 1.3 million people and receives about $3 million. The francophone population in the west which includes Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia, and which accounts for 200,000 people, receives $10 million. I believe that that reflects some sensitivity to an adjustment of the amounts paid per capita in accordance with needs. Three million dollars for 1.3 million people is about $2.50 per capita. In Saskatchewan, there was $2,105,330 for about 18,000 people. That's equivalent to over $116.96 per person. Therefore it's almost 60 times more.

Do you feel that there is some sensitivity to the differences between regions?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

I wish to remind our witnesses that we have to leave this room soon in order to allow another committee to meet here. I would therefore invite you to make a brief comment so that we can adjourn our meeting. At the same time, I thank you for having travelled here, either by a long road or after a long flight.

Mr. Desgagné?

[Denis Desgagné]

Together with that, do you have the mechanism for distribution? No. Therefore, what is the mechanism?

In the presentation, we say that this is improvised and there is no serious action with an analysis of actual needs. If you conduct the analysis and then examine the situation per capita, it will probably be much more than you have right now in light of the brief analysis you have before you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Desgagné.

Mr. Denault, you have the floor.

[Fernand Denault]

You don't have in that the whole impact of the complementary institutional services. That plays a major role. So if there was an analysis of actual needs, it would certainly have a major impact.