Official Languages Committee on April 1st, 2008

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Desgagné and Mr. Denault, I live in Quebec City. I am a Quebec City resident. Even if there is an extremely high francophone population and we have universities close by, it is difficult to find workers in a number of sectors, and mainly, there are shortages in health care. This is not only true for your regions, but for all regions. I can understand some of your frustration, which we share. This phenomenon is being felt across the country due to the aging of the population. Demand is high, because there are a number of positions to fill. I understand your position, but this is happening throughout Quebec and Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Harvey.

It is now the turn of Mr. Gravel from the Bloc Québécois.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Good day. Mr. Desgagné, a number of years ago, some of my family members settled in Gravelbourg. My name is Gravel. It was my mother's aunt, and I know that she was a nun. She was a cloistered sister at the Précieux-Sang there, and she wrote to us to complain because there were no francophone schools there. My aunt's children spoke French, but her grandchildren were completely assimilated and couldn't speak a word of French. Even today it's completely anglophone.

We know that the schools are where it happens. Earlier, you mentioned a small community, Ponteix, where the population is aging. Consequently, there are fewer young people and fewer children. What efforts are you making to ensure that these children are educated in French? Otherwise, they will be assimilated, as we have seen in the past when there have been no French schools.

[Denis Desgagné]

First, we have only had the right to a French education for 15 years. It was illegal in Saskatchewan. So, it has been only 15 years. There was a private school in Gravelbourg that offered French courses. Quite often, it offered such courses throughout all of the west. In Ponteix, there is a small school in a community centre, and we often use video conferences to provide various other courses. This school has only one resource staff member, meaning a teacher who is responsible for running the school and who does everything with an assistant. We use all possible means to provide services to the young in our community. Ponteix is approximately one hour from Gravelbourg. Some parents, because this school has only six or seven students, opt to send their kids to Gravelbourg at their own expense. That is more or less how we manage. At the same time, we are trying to develop the economy in this community to attract new families who speak French, among other things.

As I said, there is a lot of innovation in Saskatchewan: we don't have a choice. When someone asks for a service to be provided, we do everything we can to ensure that it is.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I have another question, perhaps for both of you. Do you ever compare yourselves to the anglophone community in Quebec?

[Denis Desgagné]

Yes.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Are you able to draw the parallel and, if so, what is it?

[Denis Desgagné]

There is no comparison in my opinion. There is no shortage of institutions. An anglophone in Quebec can get a post-secondary education in English, is entitled to better hospitals and so on. Furthermore there is a sea of English-speakers in Canada and, consequently an anglophone in Quebec doesn't feel like a minority as is the case for a francophone in Gravelbourg, where we are alone and isolated. They're two separate realities and we shouldn't compare them when we talk about funding and capacity. We shouldn't do that; it's a huge mistake that is made every year within the framework of the Canada-community agreements.

There are so many services. I am originally from Quebec. Whenever we met an anglophone, we did everything we could to speak English to him or her. When we were outside Quebec and we spoke in French, we were told to speak white. There is no comparison. I am talking about Radio-Canada. I don't agree when people say that anglophones can feel the same way in Quebec. It's not the same thing at all. In Quebec, there are choices, a wide range of television channels, radio stations and other types of media, among other things. In Saskatchewan, there is Radio-Canada, Radio-Canada and Radio-Canada, and we are told about traffic in Montreal. In terms of identity, it's hard.

[An hon. member]

It's the same thing in Ontario.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Yes, I would like—

[Fernand Denault]

Our situation is somewhat different. In legal terms, French and English are equal. So, we are trying to make comparisons with anglophones in Quebec, but we do not compare ourselves to anglophones in Quebec. There are many reasons for that. In large part, I agree with what Denis just said: we certainly don't have the resources that the anglophone population in Quebec has.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Do the young francophones in your provinces want to keep their French or do they want to be assimilated?

[Fernand Denault]

Yes, they want to keep their French, but there are challenges. In light of the testimony of members of our community and territorial and federal government employees, the judge realized that there were infringements to our dignity and our sense of identity. And that's why the judge handed down a decision saying that there had been discrimination. These things are also important in keeping one's identity. We can't keep getting hit on the head. Exceptional measures need to be taken to retain who we are when we're being constantly assaulted. We need adequate schools able to really provide equivalent services to what anglophones have. We don't have that either, but we continue to work and we are seeing some success.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Good. Thank you, Mr. Denault.

We'll move on to Mr. Mulcair.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to come back to Mr. Desgagné. One thing isn't clear to me. Earlier, I specifically asked him how he saw the situation in Quebec. He's just talked about Quebec, and he clearly understands the situation. I admit that I'm having trouble seeing how he can draw a direct connection with the provinces in this area, without of course granting subsidies as is being done in the area of second language education in the provinces. I'd like him to expand on that.

[Denis Desgagné]

If the agreements went through the provinces, the provincial government would become responsible to the public. We have worked, with regard to the Mercure case, to ensure that our province is bilingual. Approximately two months later, after the Supreme Court handed down its decision, the government ensured that the province was unilingual. We have been fighting this government since 1988 to obtain services and the means to live in French. We mustn't forget that the majority of services are not being provided by the federal government but rather by the provinces, be it in health care or in another area. If we don't take those steps with the province, it won't develop a culture of responsibility to linguistic duality. That is the federal government's responsibility.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Are you not afraid, if the money were to go directly from the federal government to the provinces, of losing your say on how that money is spent and how the needs will be met?

[Denis Desgagné]

I can give you an example with regard to workers. Responsibility for workers has been transferred with obligations. So, in terms of workers, we are working with the province and we get to have our say. To be frank, when it comes to the administrative complexities, it's much easier to deal with the province than with the federal government.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

I agree with you there.

[Denis Desgagné]

Consequently, we have a better partnership and we are working with the overall department on the issue of workers. What we're doing in our province is even being repeated elsewhere, and we find there is a better synergy between the community and the province.

It's become normal to be French-speaking in Saskatchewan. We are no longer lost Canadians. We can be bilingual, we can be Franco-Saskatchewanians and live in Saskatchewan, and it's normal. So we want to make the French fact normal.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

One thing that keeps coming up these days, be it in a francophone majority province such as Quebec or elsewhere, is that we're trying to ensure an equal distribution of immigrants. In the past, immigration has been concentrated in the major urban centres.

Perhaps we can draw an analogy with francophone communities. I know that there is a lot of work being done in Manitoba by a very active community to attract francophones, be they Belgian, Ivorians, Swiss or French, to ensure that the community itself can maintain a certain critical mass. If we're talking about institutions and all that, if they are disappearing, it will be difficult to maintain them.

Are such efforts being made in the Northwest Territories and in Saskatchewan? Are they successful? Are you getting help from the federal government?

[Fernand Denault]

The Northwest Territories are just starting to take an organized approach to immigration, and it seems very promising. In fact, we have a good relationship with the federal Department of Immigration. However, it's something that's more or less understood in various parts of the country.

A few weeks ago, here in Ottawa, at a Senate committee, I was asked a question as to whether we weren't afraid of not finding francophones in the future. It was a question about who the real francophones would be.

I would answer that we should remember the history of western Canada. In western Canada, we could also ask who the real anglophones are because once the Metis and aboriginal resistance was beaten, the Canadian west was inundated with people from throughout the world. It was anglophone assimilation and a lot was done to assimilate those people. Today, the same question applies. Who are the anglophones in Canada? That's a bit puzzling. If you want to make things a problem for one party, they can be made hard for the other party too.

So we see a better future and certainly a diversified one. Culturally speaking we see a wealth that's difficult to image by jumping head first into—

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

I much prefer the way in which you concluded, in saying that you see a better future, rather than the talk about making things difficult for others.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Mulcair.

You may quickly respond.

[Denis Desgagné]

It's one and the same. Immigration in our neck of the woods is going very well: 100 new families have arrived. This is, nonetheless, something new in Saskatchewan: 100 new families settled there last year. The problem is that this leads to other difficulties and other priorities in terms of needs. Often, the immigrants are picked through a candidate selection program, but there are also refugees with challenges, and we then need to find solutions to those challenges if we want to ensure real integration. Here again, resources are needed to really help these people.