Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 7th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

That is not a point of order. Please, let's move on.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Well, there has to be some evidence or some facts behind the line of questioning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, you have the floor.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

You just talked about providing frank advice to the former Prime Minister. One of Mr. Harper's first acts after being sworn in was a pretty big photo op with Mr. Zaccardelli in front of the RCMP headquarters. That's a very powerful subliminal message, especially when put into the context of the events just prior to that.

Did you provide frank advice on that issue?

[Commr William Elliott]

Mr. Chairman, I don't think it's appropriate for me to indicate on what matters I did or did not provide advice to the Prime Minister.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Since you've become the commissioner, how often are you presently in direct contact with the minister, Stockwell Day?

[Commr William Elliott]

I was with the minister when he made the announcement on behalf of the Prime Minister. Since the day the announcement was made, I've spoken with the minister by phone once and I saw him in person twice.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Well, the lines of communication appear to be quite good. What contact have you had with the Prime Minister or the Prime Minister's Office?

[Commr William Elliott]

Actually...I'm sorry; you remind me I saw the minister one additional time. He and I met with the Prime Minister. That's the only dealing I've had with the Prime Minister; it was in the week intervening between the announcement being made public and my assuming office on July 16.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Mr. Williams is next, for seven minutes.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I hope we can turn and look forward, rather than looking back and looking under every rug and corner to see if we can find something that can tarnish somebody's reputation.

Anyway, first of all, former Commissioner Busson, again, my congratulations for the job you did, which was a phenomenal job under the most difficult circumstances. It's very much appreciated by Parliament and indeed by all Canadians. As you go into retirement, go in with your head high, knowing you did a fabulous job.

Mr. Elliott, you're now in the hot seat. It was mentioned earlier in relation to the CFO, Mr. Gauvin, that it would take a couple of years of dismissal processes before we could get him out the door. We had that with Mr. Crupi and we had it with Mr. Ewanovich and others. Here are people who haven't lived up to the job--in fact, with Mr. Crupi, there may have to be some serious allegations of a criminal nature or whatever--and they couldn't get them fired.

Are you going to do something about that, so that people who have crossed the line in the RCMP, people who need to be fired, are going to get fired? Do you think it's appropriate that it takes two or three years to fire somebody if they obviously deserve to be turfed?

[Commr William Elliott]

I think we should have a regime in which people who take actions--or fail to take actions--that justify dismissal should be able to be dismissed expeditiously.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Then we have the other side of the coin. We have Denise Revine, who was summarily terminated in a different fashion, but terminated nonetheless. She was a whistle-blower.

How are you going to be able to differentiate between the people? Somebody says turf them out the door, but they're the good guys and they should be sticking around. How are you going to ensure a timely process to protect the innocent, punish the deserving, and go forward? Are you contemplating any new processes--task forces, committees, whatever?

[Commr William Elliott]

My background includes the beginning of my professional career as a defence counsel. Certainly everyone is entitled to due process. I'm not suggesting that “expeditious” means you shouldn't have due process. People need to be able to provide fair answer and defence.

The government has taken a number of steps to provide a mechanism, external to government departments and agencies, that will protect whistle-blowers and people who come forth with information. One of the things the task force has been asked to do is to look at the discipline regime. I am certainly interested in improvements being identified and implemented.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay.

Ms. Duxbury indicated that there are some serious problems within the RCMP with morale and with women who tend to leave because the job is more important than family. And for women, of course, family should be--and in 99% of the cases it is--their number one priority. If they have to choose between the force and the family, Ms. Duxbury is pointing out--

[Prof. Linda Duxbury]

I didn't say that. I didn't say that for women family should be their number one priority. I think that family should be--

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

No, I didn't say that you said it. I said that most women consider family to be their number one situation, and if they have to choose--

[Prof. Linda Duxbury]

No data supports that, actually. Family is number one for both men and women, and work-life balance is important for both men and women.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I didn't exclude men. I just said that women are making the choice, as you said, to leave the force rather than stay with the career. These are the types of morale issues that need to be addressed.

So it's not just the upper echelon that you have to deal with, Mr. Elliott. You have to deal with the whole structure, all the way right down to corporal and constable, to ensure that you have an organization that feels part of an organization of integrity. Do you have any plans to do that at this point in time?

[Commr William Elliott]

That's a very broad question.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You do intend to address the issue.

[Commr William Elliott]

The issue of ethics is certainly very much front and centre. I think you heard from Assistant Commissioner Conlin yesterday that we do provide training, both to cadets and entry officers, on ethics. I think we need to reinforce the ethics and values of the organization. In fact, I've just signed off a communication in relation to that.

I said earlier, in response to a question, that we needed to have processes and mechanisms in place that support the type of environment that we want the RCMP to be. I don't have specific structures to propose at the moment, but I certainly think that we need to find ways to reinforce the values and ethics and positive culture that are necessary for everybody to feel that they can have a productive career, from constables to the most senior ranks.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You're going to be changing the ethics or the core values.... How to describe it? You're going to try to bring the RCMP up to an effective force where people have credibility and faith in their own organization, as opposed to what has happened in the past. That's why you have been appointed--to bring a new culture to the RCMP. Do you have any vision of what success is or what you're trying to achieve in the RCMP?

[Commr William Elliott]

I have a couple of comments.

First of all, we're not starting from ground zero. We have a very well articulated set of values. They are broadly recognized. Certainly one of the things I described from meeting with some of the women and men across the country was my sense, on their part, of hurt. I think that is actually a positive reflection of the fact that the men and women of the RCMP, almost without exception, actually believe in the values and are very disappointed and hurt when people fail to live up to them. As I indicated with respect to the survey results that we have received, there is a positive trend, and certainly senior leaders in the organization have made concerted efforts to improve the morale. And actually--