Evidence of meeting #107 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was procurement.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:05 a.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Please continue, because I'm very concerned about that. I think Canadians want to be reassured that there is no political interference with the procurement process and, indeed, any investigations that come thereafter, because any manner of harmful effects could arrive.
Please continue.
11:05 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
There is a lot of emphasis put on this in terms of the quality of our briefing and ensuring that the minister is aware of things that are happening when a decision has been taken when there are active procurements.
There is a prohibition to meet on various elements. Meetings occur. They are always with a public servant official present. We put a focus on fairness and we have fairness monitoring. We really take this very seriously. The ministers have all been very serious, aware and alive to this issue.
I would also note, for example, that when we were doing vaccine procurement, we all signed additional...over and above our regular conflicts of interest. We had the public sector, I think the MINO and the ministers all signing off to ensure that due diligence was being done and that there were controls to separate the political and public sector aspects.
11:05 a.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you.
On that note, it was recently reported that the current minister was not briefed on ArriveCAN as part of the “hot issues” section of his transition binder. PSPC has had seven ministers over the last 10 years. It would seem to me that your department has experience with transition.
Not everything can be included in the binder. Can you tell us how those priority issues are triaged and prepared?
11:05 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I think it's reasonable to say that the binder is for providing an overview of the key issues in front of the department. We at PSPC do more than procurement. We are the Receiver General for Canada. We do the translation for the Government of Canada. We do defence procurement. We are the custodian of real property.
There is a whole slew of things that need to briefed on and provided in terms of legislation and acts. In that first run-up in July, we wanted to focus on what was immediate, as you indicated—
11:05 a.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Indeed, Deputy Minister, would the fact that not a single question was raised about the issue by the opposition in question period for the first six months prior to the transition—
11:05 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you, Mrs. Shanahan. That is your time. You are well over.
11:05 a.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Well, you've been good with the time, Chair. We've appreciated it.
11:05 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
I have. I think I gave Ms. Bradford well over a minute more, but that doesn't mean I extend it to every minister and every member. Of course, the government side has many more time slots. You'll be able to return to this.
We'll begin our third round with Mr. Genuis.
You have the floor for five minutes, please.
11:05 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you, Chair.
I want to ask specifically about the Liberal Minister of Procurement, Jean-Yves Duclos. We just heard some questions about the role of the minister. We're supposed to have a system of ministerial accountability, but you've just said that the minister effectively has no actual role in procurement.
Given that his title is the Minister of Procurement, I'm just trying to understand this. What does Jean-Yves Duclos do all day as the Minister of Procurement?
11:05 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Just to clarify, I was speaking about active procurement where there are open bids.
11:05 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay.
When it comes to ArriveCAN, you have the decision made. You have the ensuing problems and scandals with the policies related to it. Your department advises CBSA that there are problems. Are we to believe that all throughout this process, not just while the bid is actually open, there is no role for the minister or the minister's office?
11:10 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I think it might be helpful to give a bit of historical context.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
You'll have to be very brief. I have only five minutes.
11:10 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I'll be very brief. I'm very respectful in the sense that I try to answer the questions very quickly.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
11:10 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
In 2020, when the first contracts were being let, there was no mention of ArriveCAN. Any briefing being provided to the minister at that time was that it was all hands on deck. Every department needed certain additional support to keep everything open, including the border. It would have been that level of briefing. As ArriveCAN became more of a bespoke name, briefings started coming more into that area. In 2022, there were QP notes, which is a traditional way to brief.
You asked about Minister Duclos. Minister Duclos has been briefed on many different aspects of it. You asked about the responsibility of the PSPC minister. We have everything from security to contract integrity. These are areas the minister is involved in—
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I'm going to jump in. Thank you. You'll have a chance to respond again.
Since the pandemic started, there have been four Liberal ministers of procurement—Anita Anand, Filomena Tassi, Helena Jaczek and now Jean-Yves Duclos. That's four ministers in about four years. Is it reasonable to assume that all four of them had been briefed about either ArriveCAN or the ArriveCAN project before it had that name? In the process of engaging ministers, are they actually providing policy direction? Are they raising concerns about aspects of the process?
You talked a lot about ministers being briefed about things. I would expect that it's not just a one-way dialogue where you're telling the spokesman for the department what to say if it comes up in the House of Commons. They're actually providing some kind of direction or raising concern about things they're hearing. Can I assume that all four were briefed, to some extent, at certain points in time? At what points did they offer responses, raise policy concerns and suggest adjustments in direction?
11:10 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I cannot speak in detail to the first one or two. When I became associate deputy minister and then deputy minister, I had more familiarity with the briefings.
They were briefed and engaged on the issues we're facing now: What is the plan? Is the procurement ombudsman engaged? Is the AG engaged? These are the kinds of discussions that are going on in terms of whether there is a substantive issue and, if so, how it is being fixed. What are the risk mitigation strategies? What are the considerations?
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Then they were briefed. They asked questions. You're not really describing a process in which the minister is coming in and saying there's a problem here and you need to fix it. You're not describing a system in which ministers are providing direction. You're just describing a system in which ministers are briefed and are then asking questions.
Would you say that ministers were actively providing corrective direction on policy issues throughout the process, or were ministers being briefed and asking questions about what you were doing as a department?
11:10 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
It's an interesting question you ask because the financial delegations and the accountabilities rest with the CBSA. We're briefing the Minister of PSPC and are providing some procurement observations. However, on the spend, on the record-keeping, on the controls and on whether the app works, these are—
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Ma'am, you understand my point, though. You're providing information to a person whose title is the Minister of Procurement, and we have a system in which Canadians expect that minister to take responsibility for what happens in that department. The way this is being framed, including by Liberal members—
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
11:10 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
—is that the minister is just a sort of passive passenger, receiving briefings like students at a seminar listening to what they're being told by the experts and asking interesting questions along the way.
11:10 a.m.
Conservative