Public Accounts Committee on March 7th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Genuis, thank you.

I would ask for a brief response, please.

[Arianne Reza]

I would say that Minister Duclos has taken an active role. Minister Duclos has been briefed by the Auditor General. We are looking at the whole issue and making sure that we have the direction set to move forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Next up is Ms. Khalid.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I find it very interesting how hard the Conservatives are trying to tie this to a minister when we have heard time and time again from so many different department officials that there was no minister linked to it. I'll leave that there.

I wonder how much money the Conservatives have spent calling committee meetings to find out how they can scramble to link this to a minister, to link this to some kind of big conspiracy, which they're clearly not finding. I wonder how many millions of dollars they're going to spend just to try to get their political points in.

I want to express how disappointed I was when I read the Auditor General's report. I don't want to see a lack of transparency within the public service because I believe the thousands and thousands of people in the public service do really good work. When something like this happens, it really impacts the trust within our public service, which we rely on, on a day-to-day basis, to get that work done.

I'll start by going back to the situation in 2020.

Ms. Reza, perhaps you can help us understand what was going on in procurement in 2020. How did it differ from 2019?

[Arianne Reza]

It differed significantly and radically. We doubled the contract value we did in the year with the same amount of staff. We did it in a position where in mid-March, when we were negotiating services, all of a sudden we were responsible for buying PPE for Canada—not just at the federal level, but to help the provinces and territories.

Buying PPE for Canada was not for the faint of heart. I was front and centre in that, working night and day with many other people who were working night and day, trying to build a supply chain that was able to pivot around the world and able to sort out the needs of Canadians in hospitals. It was incredibly intense. Every department came to us trying to seek the authority needed to deliver critical services to Canadians.

Add to that vaccine procurement in a globally competitive environment, trying to have call centres, getting freezers to keep vaccines, trying to work with a workforce that was exhausted and sick, and trying to deliver services for Canadian society, and it was a pretty intense period of time when a tremendous amount of work went on.

I heard in your question the work the public service is doing. The current situation we're facing in procurement is shattering. I've heard both the AG and the comptroller general of Canada caution that more rules are not required, but as you heard my colleague indicate, we've already started to put in new rules. We've started to enforce them and do what we can to increase our due diligence.

It's going to be a very difficult way forward, based on a year or two of pandemic readiness for PPE, ventilators and the many different commodities that had to be built and for which a supply chain had to be created where there was none before. It was certainly a very difficult period.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Taxpayer dollars mean a lot. They mean a lot to me, to my colleagues and to every single member in the House, as does how we use them.

As you're going forward and fixing a lot of the mistakes that have happened in the specific contracting, is there a way to get taxpayer dollars back? Are you able to do something about it?

[Arianne Reza]

The Government of Canada has different levers it can use for restitution. We are in mid-consultation with our legal services to see what we can do across an array of measures.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Can you also compare...? During COVID—you spoke about this—there were so many contracts going on, whether they were for the N95 masks, vaccines, etc. Did we see similar procurement practices in all of the other contract negotiations as well?

[Arianne Reza]

No, we did not.

I want to add something that I think is very pertinent to the conversation. Because 2020 was such a difficult, turbulent time, when so many things were happening, we actually took the unprecedented measure of sending out a conflict of interest form to all procurement officers and all senior officials in PSPC, asking them if they had any conflicts of interest with the firms we were doing business with. We did that, I think, two or three times in 2020.

We have a thousand COIs on record. We asked them because at that time, Dalian, GC Strategies and Coradix were in the mix of companies we were doing business with for the CBSA application, and we received no responses.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

How can it be that the departmental officials who are responsible for procurement are not aware of the contracts awarded by the various departments they are supposed to advise?

There is something fascinating about all this. How can a company like GC Strategies, which is made up of just two people, obtain so many contracts?

Was there a sense of panic in the department that led to those contracts being awarded without looking at the whole picture?

[Arianne Reza]

That's a very interesting question.

As I said before, our department awards a very small number of contracts. Most contracts are awarded by the departments themselves. They are responsible for proactive disclosure, in accordance with a Treasury Board policy.

I will let Mr. Laporte comment further.

[Dominic Laporte]

Thank you.

You have to remember that GC Strategies did not pop up out of nowhere. It was qualified under supply arrangements. So it had met certain criteria as to its financial capacity and prior experience. The company did not just pop up suddenly. It had experience and had carried out contracts in the past.

I am not trying to defend the company, but I think you have to look at the context. That is a point I wanted to make regarding GC Strategies.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

The background also mentions that ArriveCAN had to be invented. In your opinion, what explains the fact that the major players in the field of technical resources for projects of this size simply did not bid?

[Arianne Reza]

To answer the question, I would like to go back to a comment I made at the beginning of the meeting. The Canada Border Services Agency determined that a single supplier had the capacity to help the agency, as that supplier already had experience in designing a similar application.

However, when a competitive process was used as a method of procurement, other suppliers expressed an interest, but they ultimately did not bid.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Next up is MP Idlout.

You have the floor again for two and a half minutes, please.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik, Iksivautaq. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The deputy minister's response earlier indicates to me that she has received guidance about the importance of reconciliation with indigenous peoples, including in procurement. My next questions will be to seek whether that reaches measures in subcontracting.

Mr. Yeo claimed to have been very busy finding vendors to fulfill the contract he received, so my first question is this: What is the process to ensure that benefits are still delivered to indigenous peoples when contracts are awarded to indigenous businesses and entrepreneurs who intend to subcontract those services?

[Arianne Reza]

I'm going to ask my head of procurement to respond.

[Dominic Laporte]

That's an excellent question being raised, but unfortunately, this question would have to be directed to Indigenous Services Canada. They're the ones responsible for establishing the criteria for—I know there's a 51% ownership requirement—making sure that there are economic implications for the communities.

This is within their purview, so I wouldn't want to comment on their behalf.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

What kind of arrangement do you have with Indigenous Services Canada to make sure those measures are being followed?

[Dominic Laporte]

We are in touch with that department. I know that it's actively looking into this. It's looking at the indigenous business directory. Maybe it's reviewing some of the rules. I know that it's quite seized with the question these days.

[Arianne Reza]

If I could add, we also do indigenous benefit reports in various fields. For example, here on Parliament Hill for the construction we're doing, we have a report on this area, as well as in defence procurement. We try to capture this in various elements, make it accessible and make known what our expectations are.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

This is probably my last question.

Could you provide the details of how Dalian followed the process to ensure that subcontracts were awarded to indigenous businesses and entrepreneurs?

[Arianne Reza]

We'll take that question back and provide it to Indigenous Services Canada.