Public Accounts Committee on April 11th, 2024

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I think where the concern is.... I don't want to put words in the Auditor General's mouth, but I think she talked about the data being available. Frankly, it's a concern when there's no longer a strategy specifically dedicated to this very serious concern that has been raised over multiple decades and there's no longer this dedicated strategy based on where the data is found and where the data is dealt with.

Again, I'm going to push back a little bit. When was this decision made? Why was this done?

[Gina Wilson]

I'll repeat that there was not a time and a date when a decision was made. I would say that we do have environmental protection health officers who go in and provide testing, and they provide first nations with reports upon first nations' requests. We actually make active offers to communities to allow our inspectors to go in and provide that testing, as well as prevention, awareness and so on.

You do have a point about not knowing precisely and exactly what the extent of mould is. I think that's something for us to take back as part of this audit and be able to talk to first nations about, actually asking the question on how we want to deal with that. Do we want precision on mould extent?

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

To that, I would say that I will ask that question again. I will come back the next time you're before this committee to see what progress has been made specifically on that.

I want to follow up with regard to a 2022 survey that Indigenous Services Canada undertook. Fewer than 10% of first nations communities actually responded.

I'll perhaps go first to the Auditor General.

What kind of concern would you place on the fact that so few first nations communities responded to that survey?

[Karen Hogan]

I think it's difficult. There are always communities that don't want to respond to surveys. That's the case anywhere. You might receive a request for a survey in your inbox; some you'll respond to, and some you'll choose not to.

I think it highlights the lack of capacity to perhaps address something that is seen as not essential to the day-to-day situation for a community in trying to deal with this.

When we looked at the survey results from those that did respond, they were interesting. Many of them don't have full-time, dedicated housing managers. I will tell you that for some of the smaller communities, less than half have a dedicated resource. It's a critical resource to wade through the application process and even to just understand the issue and the needs of a community.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. That is your time.

I'll turn now to Ms. Diab.

It's nice to see you. You have the floor for five minutes. Please go ahead.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you, Chair. It's nice to have another Atlantic Canadian as chair of the committee.

I'm a member for Nova Scotia. In Nova Scotia we have 13 first nations communities that hold reserve lands. There are some fabulous examples in my province. If I speak of Membertou, I'm sure all of you must have heard of Membertou. They have a development corporation that has existed for a few decades now, and, notably Chief Terry Paul is the head of the organization. I was present last year when he won an Excellence in Business Award for Atlantic Canada.

I'm not a member of this committee. I'm substituting today. Housing is a very large topic, a huge topic. We know we have issues in housing all over the country, but particularly with regard to first nations.

Is there a discrepancy between the different provinces or regions of Canada with respect to the gap? This is for whoever is able to answer. I'd like to get an idea of that. Are there great examples that you can share, or that can be shared, of some communities that are not doing as badly or that are doing really good things in other parts of the country?

Who can help me with those questions?

[Joanne Wilkinson]

I can start—

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I also have one last question, which I will ask now.

I'd like to understand a little bit, from the doctor, this mould issue that keeps coming up here today, but only if I still have time.

Please go ahead.

[Joanne Wilkinson]

I'll give you two examples from the Atlantic and leave time for Dr. Wong. I'm an Atlantic Canadian as well.

The deputy mentioned one of them in her remarks earlier around service transfers. We have undertaken a service transfer with the Confederacy of Mainland Mi'kmaq. It is expected to be implemented in the 2026-27 fiscal year. There is also a first nations housing agency that is being developed by the Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs, so there is a lot of governance work happening in Atlantic Canada and a lot of investment in developing the economy around this as well.

For example, Abegweit First Nation in P.E.I., a close neighbour, has also worked with both the federal and provincial governments to produce more housing and to start a construction company run by the first nation, to bring people home and to have places for them to both live and work. That is a huge shift in building an economy, and it will enable the change that is needed to shift the paradigms in how housing and infrastructure are done on reserve.

With that, I'll turn it over to Dr. Wong.

[Dr. Tom Wong]

Over time, there has been a decrease in the number of house inspections being identified by Indigenous Services Canada environmental public health officers. We started with a baseline of half of the houses, and I have to emphasize that it was half of the houses that were initially being identified as having mould as an issue. Five years later, there has actually been a decrease in the number of houses and the number of inspections. It's down to less than one-quarter. However, whether it's less than a quarter or 1%, there are just too many. We'd like it to be down to less than 1%.

That goes back to the problem of the disparities and the inequities that need to be addressed. Part of the reason for the decrease in those inspections finding mould is the existence of programs for the housing sector, programs with funding to support renovations and repairs, as well as new builds, etc.

From my perspective on the public health side, much more needs to be done. We need to drive that down from 25% to less than 1%.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

It's not an indigenous issue, but when we talk of mould, I think that for someone like me or anyone, sometimes it's awareness that it's an issue as well. It could exist in so many homes, and people may not even be aware of it.

In terms of the disparity in the different regions and different provinces, can anybody comment on that?

[Karen Hogan]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I think I would point the honourable member to a few of our exhibits. You have to piece a few of them together. Exhibit 2.1 will give you the split across the provinces of where there are first nations communities and the housing units in that province. If you look at exhibit 2.2, it will show you the gap that needs to be closed.

I would point you to exhibit 2.5. While it looks at some of the programs around CMHC and not the two departments, it will show you the percentage of the housing units that were in need of repair and replacement, and the underfunding or overfunding based on the issue would be data used in our formula.

I think it would give you a sense by province of where the housing units are and where some of that gap is if you looked at those exhibits together.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

I am expecting bells for votes. We are also nearing the bottom of the half-hour. I am going to propose a truncated time of three minutes for government and official opposition members and 90 seconds each for the Bloc and the NDP.

I'll begin now, and I'll look for consent to continue. Doing this will take about 15 minutes. If the consent is there, we will continue; if not, we will have to pause when the bells go.

To the Conservative side, Mr. Schmale, you have the floor for just three minutes. You can use the full three minutes or you can stop at any time before that. You're under no obligation, but we are happy to hear from you for a full three minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair. I appreciate the full three minutes.

Ms. Wilson, I want to pick up where you left off regarding the inspectors that go into individual communities and take a look at their housing needs.

How many inspectors have been requested to go into community in the past year?

[Gina Wilson]

I will ask Dr. Wong if he has that at the tip of his fingers.

[Dr. Tom Wong]

Back in 2017-2018, approximately 1,200 home inspection requests were requested. Five years later, it was during the time of COVID, and during COVID, as we all know, requests diminished for many different services. That number went down to close to 600, which is almost a 50% reduction.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

These are the requests, but how many communities requested that?

[Dr. Tom Wong]

The number of communities also has been going down as well.

[Gina Wilson]

If it's 50% and there are 633 communities, it would be something like 300.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Continuing on the overall theme about building capacity and getting away from endless program funding that doesn't seem to be working at all, how welcoming or how interested are some of these communities in having an agent of Ottawa come onto their lands to basically point out issues that the department itself, unfortunately, had a part in not fixing?

[Gina Wilson]

You know, you have point. This is upon the first nation's request, and we won't go into communities unless they request the environmental protection health officer to come in. We try to make active offers.

These folks work regionally, so they're in Saskatchewan and Alberta; they are not in Ottawa.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

As a first nations woman, how interested would you be in having an agent of Ottawa coming onto your land to explain problems that the department was responsible for not fixing?

Where is that capacity being built on reserve to get to a point where we don't have to rely on Ottawa to get its act together before they can fix the issue on the ground?

[Gina Wilson]

They are not in Ottawa, and as a first nations—

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

You know what I meant. That was a figure of speech.

[Gina Wilson]

Okay.

As a first nations woman, I'm happy to have resources wherever I can to provide support and advice for the safety and security of my community.